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American Morning

Who's the Killer?

Aired September 25, 2002 - 08:32   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: To Houston now in a bizarre murder trial, Charles Forshe, a foster parent, is accused of smothering a toddler who was in his care. Twenty-month-old Dillon Sarer (ph) -- seen here -- with his natural mother, died in June of last year. The state's key witness is Dylan's 4-year-old brother Lucas. Lucas testified last week that he saw Forshe smother Dillon with a pillow. But the defense has a different view. They believe the brother may be guilty. Stanley Snyder, the attorney representing Charles Forshe joins us from Houston.
Good morning, sir. You obviously are trying to move the suspicion from your client to this 4-year-old child. How do you plan to do that?

STANLEY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's not as much as showing that the 4-year-old did it, but more that no one knows exactly what happened in that house that night. You have a 4-year-old who has no memory at all of anything that happened, except these small events that he explains. He saw a pushing or hitting with a pillow. That's all he remembers.

ZAHN: But what we have learned from the court psychologist, Brian Kerns, is that consistently, this child has said that your client, Charles Forshe, did and It. And when the prosecution, or psychologist was asked by the prosecution whether or not a 3-year-old could sustain a lie for so long, this is what Mr. Kerns (ph) had to say. Quote: "I don't believe that they can and stay consistent in what they are responding to. Not only would he have to maintain this lie, he'd also have to have the psychological sophistication to maintain the behavior to guard this lie."

What is your reaction to that testimony?

SCHNEIDER: Well, the jury has never heard that testimony. And I'm going to put Dr. Kerns (ph) on this morning to explain how he has coached or helped this child prepare to testify. And then we will show what he actually saw and what he's actually explaining.

When you deal with memory of a child, they put things in their own terms and the terms of what they understand. It may not -- he may not be explaining actually what he saw, and that's what we intend to show today, what he actually saw and what he's explaining, because there is other evidence that shows that he didn't -- he's explaining a completely different event.

ZAHN: I know you said at the top, it's not your intent to completely shift the focus from your client to this little boy, but, in fact, don't you have to prove this little boy is a pathological liar to win your case?

SCHNEIDER: I don't think I have to show that he's a pathological liar; I would have to show he lived in a violent world, that the act that he's described, of placing pillows on his brother's head, that's an act that he has repeatedly done. The jury has not heard it, but he's done it with other children.

ZAHN: But isn't it true that the judge won't allow for you to use that or enter that into evidence, previous charges or allegations that he was aggressive towards children in a shelter?

SCHNEIDER: In a shelter, in the Forshe home. There are two other instances where he's placed pillows on other children. There are instances of him trying to cover the mouth and nose of another child. The judge, for some reason, has decided that testimony is not relevant. But we have -- eight people have testified so far about seeing Lucas putting a pillow on Dillon's head, on putting a pillow on his head and sitting on it, pushing his head into a pillow. And we've talked -- numerous people have talked about the aggression of Lucas toward Dillon, including the babysitters at the home of St. Mark. So the jury is getting a picture that this child's behavior is not your normal sibling fighting. It's much different.

ZAHN: That'll be fascinating to see what you get out of the psychologist who, you say, has spent a long time with this child, and you actually believe he has coached him to say what he said so far? And you don't believe it's the truth?

SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't believe he's telling what he -- he's prescribing a conclusion from things he observed, but he's not describing what he -- what actually happened to Dillon. He's describing a completely different event. That should become evident today.

ZAHN: We will be watching with a great deal of interest. Stanley Schneider, thank you for your time this morning. Appreciate it.

SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Paula.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired September 25, 2002 - 08:32   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: To Houston now in a bizarre murder trial, Charles Forshe, a foster parent, is accused of smothering a toddler who was in his care. Twenty-month-old Dillon Sarer (ph) -- seen here -- with his natural mother, died in June of last year. The state's key witness is Dylan's 4-year-old brother Lucas. Lucas testified last week that he saw Forshe smother Dillon with a pillow. But the defense has a different view. They believe the brother may be guilty. Stanley Snyder, the attorney representing Charles Forshe joins us from Houston.
Good morning, sir. You obviously are trying to move the suspicion from your client to this 4-year-old child. How do you plan to do that?

STANLEY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's not as much as showing that the 4-year-old did it, but more that no one knows exactly what happened in that house that night. You have a 4-year-old who has no memory at all of anything that happened, except these small events that he explains. He saw a pushing or hitting with a pillow. That's all he remembers.

ZAHN: But what we have learned from the court psychologist, Brian Kerns, is that consistently, this child has said that your client, Charles Forshe, did and It. And when the prosecution, or psychologist was asked by the prosecution whether or not a 3-year-old could sustain a lie for so long, this is what Mr. Kerns (ph) had to say. Quote: "I don't believe that they can and stay consistent in what they are responding to. Not only would he have to maintain this lie, he'd also have to have the psychological sophistication to maintain the behavior to guard this lie."

What is your reaction to that testimony?

SCHNEIDER: Well, the jury has never heard that testimony. And I'm going to put Dr. Kerns (ph) on this morning to explain how he has coached or helped this child prepare to testify. And then we will show what he actually saw and what he's actually explaining.

When you deal with memory of a child, they put things in their own terms and the terms of what they understand. It may not -- he may not be explaining actually what he saw, and that's what we intend to show today, what he actually saw and what he's explaining, because there is other evidence that shows that he didn't -- he's explaining a completely different event.

ZAHN: I know you said at the top, it's not your intent to completely shift the focus from your client to this little boy, but, in fact, don't you have to prove this little boy is a pathological liar to win your case?

SCHNEIDER: I don't think I have to show that he's a pathological liar; I would have to show he lived in a violent world, that the act that he's described, of placing pillows on his brother's head, that's an act that he has repeatedly done. The jury has not heard it, but he's done it with other children.

ZAHN: But isn't it true that the judge won't allow for you to use that or enter that into evidence, previous charges or allegations that he was aggressive towards children in a shelter?

SCHNEIDER: In a shelter, in the Forshe home. There are two other instances where he's placed pillows on other children. There are instances of him trying to cover the mouth and nose of another child. The judge, for some reason, has decided that testimony is not relevant. But we have -- eight people have testified so far about seeing Lucas putting a pillow on Dillon's head, on putting a pillow on his head and sitting on it, pushing his head into a pillow. And we've talked -- numerous people have talked about the aggression of Lucas toward Dillon, including the babysitters at the home of St. Mark. So the jury is getting a picture that this child's behavior is not your normal sibling fighting. It's much different.

ZAHN: That'll be fascinating to see what you get out of the psychologist who, you say, has spent a long time with this child, and you actually believe he has coached him to say what he said so far? And you don't believe it's the truth?

SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't believe he's telling what he -- he's prescribing a conclusion from things he observed, but he's not describing what he -- what actually happened to Dillon. He's describing a completely different event. That should become evident today.

ZAHN: We will be watching with a great deal of interest. Stanley Schneider, thank you for your time this morning. Appreciate it.

SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Paula.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com