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American Morning

Interview With David Scheffer

Aired October 03, 2002 - 07:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It does look now that Congress will authorize the president to use force if necessary against Baghdad, but it's a completely different story so far at the U.N. There, there is resistance still to the president's call for a tougher resolution on inspections.
The U.S. opposes the return of inspectors on the ground in Iraq without a tough, new mandate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We will not be satisfied with Iraqi half-truths or Iraqi compromises or Iraqi efforts to get us back into the same swamp that they took the United Nations into back in 1998.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Today, U.N. chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, reports to the Security Council here in New York on the deal he cut with the Iraqis in Vienna earlier this week.

And for perspective on the U.N.'s role right now and where we go from here, David Scheffer, former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes is our guest here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Good morning, Ambassador. Good to see you.

DAVID SCHEFFER, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR-AT-LARGE: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: All right, let's talk about the politics in Washington first. The House comes out yesterday, bipartisan support right now to pass this resolution. The Senate may do the same thing and follow suit next week.

How much are the politics of Washington right now an influence on what happens or may happen on the U.N. Security Council?

SCHEFFER: There is some influence, because the Security Council members will look to Washington first to see whether or not Washington recognizes some of the U.N. equities in this entire matter. And those equities include a long history of inspections efforts, a long history of U.N. charter enforcement against Iraq, and whether or not Congress will recognize that this is part of a collective action against Iraq, and not simply a unilateral American action. And that's why some of the wording in the congressional resolution doesn't quite go far enough, at least in my view, to recognize that this is part of a process with the United Nations and not simply an American action.

HEMMER: So, you're saying there is a voice that is heard in the U.N. from Congress, but not necessarily one with great volume.

SCHEFFER: Exactly, because they're going to have different interests up here in New York at the United Nations. Their interest is to ensure that the integrity of the U.N. process with respect to Iraq is recognized by the United States government and carried through.

You know, the president challenged the United Nations to be relevant in this situation. But a lot of the view up here is, well, don't challenge us to the extent that you override our relevance so quickly, that indeed you make us irrelevant. Make us relevant by going through the U.N. process step-by-step, and we'll get there with use of force. But recognize that there's a process up here that has to be -- it has to be solvent (ph).

HEMMER: So, then, what is the process? Is it the resolution that comes out of France, where they say, let's put the inspectors back on the ground, and then if there is not compliance, we go back to the U.N. and put in the clause for military force?

SCHEFFER: There is a lot of sort of emerging support for that approach in the Council, and the reason for that is that the inspections regime, in an effort to let that play itself out over the coming weeks, is the validation ultimately for the use of force.

If you leap over the inspections process too quickly or too sloppily, and you push too quickly for use of force, you'll lose your support in the Security Council, you'll lose that legitimizing factor that the Council can give the United States for the use of force, because inspections is their way of validating that they have done everything they can to ensure that, in fact, there is a threat in Iraq.

HEMMER: How about this, then? If the agreement in Vienna says -- and I want to quote now -- "immediate, unrestricted, unconditional access," apparently the same deal they had set up four years ago in 1998. If that's the case, and yet the presidential palaces are off- limits, how do you way, then, indeed there is an open door and an open policy throughout the entire country with the exception of A through H, or 1 through 8, when it comes to the palaces?

SCHEFFER: Well, this is where I think the compromise will be struck with the United States, and that is that there will be an initial resolution that indeed will not repeat the 1998 scenario. In other words, the presidential palaces will not be so protected. They will have to be unconditionally opened for inspections.

HEMMER: So, that...

SCHEFFER: The Council will insist on that.

HEMMER: So, that tells me, then, the U.N. resolution, once it's achieved, will have tougher language than this?

SCHEFFER: Oh, yes, I think the compromise is there will be a tough Security Council resolution on inspections, but it won't have that final step of, if there is any infraction, automatically go to use of force. I think they'll compromise and seek a second resolution that will say, once there is a violation, a material breach, then we come back automatically to the Security Council, and then only item on our agenda is use of force.

HEMMER: We'll see where it goes today.

Ambassador David Scheffer, thanks for your time.

SCHEFFER: Thank you.

HEMMER: Good to see you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.







Aired October 3, 2002 - 07:18   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It does look now that Congress will authorize the president to use force if necessary against Baghdad, but it's a completely different story so far at the U.N. There, there is resistance still to the president's call for a tougher resolution on inspections.
The U.S. opposes the return of inspectors on the ground in Iraq without a tough, new mandate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We will not be satisfied with Iraqi half-truths or Iraqi compromises or Iraqi efforts to get us back into the same swamp that they took the United Nations into back in 1998.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Today, U.N. chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, reports to the Security Council here in New York on the deal he cut with the Iraqis in Vienna earlier this week.

And for perspective on the U.N.'s role right now and where we go from here, David Scheffer, former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes is our guest here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Good morning, Ambassador. Good to see you.

DAVID SCHEFFER, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR-AT-LARGE: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: All right, let's talk about the politics in Washington first. The House comes out yesterday, bipartisan support right now to pass this resolution. The Senate may do the same thing and follow suit next week.

How much are the politics of Washington right now an influence on what happens or may happen on the U.N. Security Council?

SCHEFFER: There is some influence, because the Security Council members will look to Washington first to see whether or not Washington recognizes some of the U.N. equities in this entire matter. And those equities include a long history of inspections efforts, a long history of U.N. charter enforcement against Iraq, and whether or not Congress will recognize that this is part of a collective action against Iraq, and not simply a unilateral American action. And that's why some of the wording in the congressional resolution doesn't quite go far enough, at least in my view, to recognize that this is part of a process with the United Nations and not simply an American action.

HEMMER: So, you're saying there is a voice that is heard in the U.N. from Congress, but not necessarily one with great volume.

SCHEFFER: Exactly, because they're going to have different interests up here in New York at the United Nations. Their interest is to ensure that the integrity of the U.N. process with respect to Iraq is recognized by the United States government and carried through.

You know, the president challenged the United Nations to be relevant in this situation. But a lot of the view up here is, well, don't challenge us to the extent that you override our relevance so quickly, that indeed you make us irrelevant. Make us relevant by going through the U.N. process step-by-step, and we'll get there with use of force. But recognize that there's a process up here that has to be -- it has to be solvent (ph).

HEMMER: So, then, what is the process? Is it the resolution that comes out of France, where they say, let's put the inspectors back on the ground, and then if there is not compliance, we go back to the U.N. and put in the clause for military force?

SCHEFFER: There is a lot of sort of emerging support for that approach in the Council, and the reason for that is that the inspections regime, in an effort to let that play itself out over the coming weeks, is the validation ultimately for the use of force.

If you leap over the inspections process too quickly or too sloppily, and you push too quickly for use of force, you'll lose your support in the Security Council, you'll lose that legitimizing factor that the Council can give the United States for the use of force, because inspections is their way of validating that they have done everything they can to ensure that, in fact, there is a threat in Iraq.

HEMMER: How about this, then? If the agreement in Vienna says -- and I want to quote now -- "immediate, unrestricted, unconditional access," apparently the same deal they had set up four years ago in 1998. If that's the case, and yet the presidential palaces are off- limits, how do you way, then, indeed there is an open door and an open policy throughout the entire country with the exception of A through H, or 1 through 8, when it comes to the palaces?

SCHEFFER: Well, this is where I think the compromise will be struck with the United States, and that is that there will be an initial resolution that indeed will not repeat the 1998 scenario. In other words, the presidential palaces will not be so protected. They will have to be unconditionally opened for inspections.

HEMMER: So, that...

SCHEFFER: The Council will insist on that.

HEMMER: So, that tells me, then, the U.N. resolution, once it's achieved, will have tougher language than this?

SCHEFFER: Oh, yes, I think the compromise is there will be a tough Security Council resolution on inspections, but it won't have that final step of, if there is any infraction, automatically go to use of force. I think they'll compromise and seek a second resolution that will say, once there is a violation, a material breach, then we come back automatically to the Security Council, and then only item on our agenda is use of force.

HEMMER: We'll see where it goes today.

Ambassador David Scheffer, thanks for your time.

SCHEFFER: Thank you.

HEMMER: Good to see you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.