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American Morning
Interview with Paolo Pasicolan
Aired October 14, 2002 - 09:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Want to move to Southeast Asia quickly. It is being called already the worst act of terrorism in the history of Indonesia, 180 are dead, hundreds more injured or missing, mostly Australian.
Two Americans we know confirmed dead, this after bomb blasts ripped through two nightclubs on the island of Bali. Mike Chinoy is there on the scene and joins us for an update by way of videophone there -- Mike, hello.
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bill. Well, normally at 9:00 at night here in Bali, this street would be absolutely packed with tourists going to restaurants, store, nightclubs, and discos. Tonight it is deserted, dark, eerie.
A few yards behind me is where the bomb went off on Saturday night, and at the moment, there are still hundreds of people missing, 187 believed dead.
Throughout the day, tourists have been fleeing Bali in large numbers. At the same time, the Australian air force flew in C-130 transport planes and almost all of the foreigners who were injured in the attack have now been evacuated.
Evacuation on the mind of the U.S. government as well. All non- essential personnel and families of U.S. Embassy staff members being asked to leave, and Americans and Britons have been urged, if they have no essential business here, to leave as well.
The Indonesian defense minister (AUDIO GAP) that al Qaeda was behind this attack. That seems to be the emerging consensus of analysts and diplomats as well. They are looking at what appears to have been a bomb planted, aimed at a soft target, Westerners in an area with very, very little security, coming after a series of other incidents, including a grenade attack outside the home of an American aid official in Jakarta a short while ago.
The big question now, what will the Indonesian government do? Intense pressure from the U.S., from Australia and other Southeast Asian nations to crack down on home-grown Islamic radicals believed to have links with al Qaeda. It is a very tough call for the Indonesian government in its predominantly Muslim nation, as the government fears sparking a backlash if it gets tough.
At the same time, there are fears that if the government does not move quickly, there will be a continuing exodus of foreigners, and that will cause devastating damage to Indonesia's economy. and make this country something of a pariah in the international community. A huge amount at stake for Indonesia as the investigation into this bombing goes forward -- Bill.
HEMMER: All great points. Thank you, Mike. Mike Chinoy by way of videophone there in Kuta (ph).
Let's pick up on some of those points from Mike now. Who's behind the attacks? Paolo Pasicolan is an expert on Southeast Asian affairs at the Heritage Foundation. He is live today from the nation's capital -- good to have you. Good morning to you.
PAOLO PASICOLAN, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Thank you for having me.
HEMMER: At this point, you heard what Mike was reporting, the defense minister saying it's al Qaeda or some sort of connection, splinter group to al Qaeda. Your read on this is what based on Indonesian recent history?
PASICOLAN: Well, we're not really surprised that this attack happened in Indonesia. I mean, we're all appalled and we are very concerned of what's happening over there, but of all the countries in Southeast Asia with significant militant Muslim groups, that includes, like the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia has been the country who has cracked down the least, or has been least active in trying to crack down on terrorism. So, unfortunately, we saw this coming.
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: Why is that, and have you detected in any sense or any degree a willingness to change that approach and indeed start cracking down?
PASICOLAN: Well, first, the Indonesian government is concerned that if they did crack down on Islamic militancy, they would somehow hurt their constituency, the moderate Muslims, and that moderate Muslims would shy away from the ruling coalition. However, I think this should be the first event that changes their mind.
HEMMER: And you think they will act or not?
PASICOLAN: I think they have to act at this point in time, because there has been overwhelming international condemnation of their inaction, because their inaction has essentially encouraged al Qaeda militants to flee to Indonesia because they are kind of a safe haven because they haven't acted.
HEMMER: Look at the population in Indonesia, well over 200 million people. The island of Java is one of the most densely populated regions in the world. Not to indicate that because you have a crowded city that it could foster terrorism, but is it easy to hide in that country? It would appear at this point, if the government is not willing to do it, and you have all these different people living in a very tightly-packed area, it might be a fertile ground for making something like this take root and grow. Correct or not? PASICOLAN: I think that's very true, although the bigger point is it's not so much the population or amount of people so much as law and order, and the willingness of the government and the police force to really investigate terrorist suspects.
HEMMER: Why is it, then, to date, anyway, at this point, there's been no claim of responsibility? Does that indicate anything?
PASICOLAN: I don't think so, because if you remember, Osama bin Laden, despite overwhelming evidence, has still -- still denies the attacks on September 11.
HEMMER: Also in Indonesia, Paolo, quickly, one final point here.
What is the biggest concern for Jakarta? Is it their own economy, knowing that they're going to lose a lot of tourist dollars right now, which is very critical to many parts of that country, or is it the image thing, about how the outside world looks at Indonesia and whether or not it is truly living up to an agreement, a verbal agreement, being that to crack down?
PASICOLAN: I think their biggest concern is going to be to balance their response that they have to take against terrorism. At the same time, making sure that they're not doing this just because the West says so, and they're not doing this against Muslims in general, but fundamentalist, violent Islamic militants.
HEMMER: Thank you. Paolo Pasicolan, Heritage Foundation. Something we will track. Devastating attacks there late on Saturday night. Thanks for your time.
PASICOLAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 14, 2002 - 09:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Want to move to Southeast Asia quickly. It is being called already the worst act of terrorism in the history of Indonesia, 180 are dead, hundreds more injured or missing, mostly Australian.
Two Americans we know confirmed dead, this after bomb blasts ripped through two nightclubs on the island of Bali. Mike Chinoy is there on the scene and joins us for an update by way of videophone there -- Mike, hello.
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bill. Well, normally at 9:00 at night here in Bali, this street would be absolutely packed with tourists going to restaurants, store, nightclubs, and discos. Tonight it is deserted, dark, eerie.
A few yards behind me is where the bomb went off on Saturday night, and at the moment, there are still hundreds of people missing, 187 believed dead.
Throughout the day, tourists have been fleeing Bali in large numbers. At the same time, the Australian air force flew in C-130 transport planes and almost all of the foreigners who were injured in the attack have now been evacuated.
Evacuation on the mind of the U.S. government as well. All non- essential personnel and families of U.S. Embassy staff members being asked to leave, and Americans and Britons have been urged, if they have no essential business here, to leave as well.
The Indonesian defense minister (AUDIO GAP) that al Qaeda was behind this attack. That seems to be the emerging consensus of analysts and diplomats as well. They are looking at what appears to have been a bomb planted, aimed at a soft target, Westerners in an area with very, very little security, coming after a series of other incidents, including a grenade attack outside the home of an American aid official in Jakarta a short while ago.
The big question now, what will the Indonesian government do? Intense pressure from the U.S., from Australia and other Southeast Asian nations to crack down on home-grown Islamic radicals believed to have links with al Qaeda. It is a very tough call for the Indonesian government in its predominantly Muslim nation, as the government fears sparking a backlash if it gets tough.
At the same time, there are fears that if the government does not move quickly, there will be a continuing exodus of foreigners, and that will cause devastating damage to Indonesia's economy. and make this country something of a pariah in the international community. A huge amount at stake for Indonesia as the investigation into this bombing goes forward -- Bill.
HEMMER: All great points. Thank you, Mike. Mike Chinoy by way of videophone there in Kuta (ph).
Let's pick up on some of those points from Mike now. Who's behind the attacks? Paolo Pasicolan is an expert on Southeast Asian affairs at the Heritage Foundation. He is live today from the nation's capital -- good to have you. Good morning to you.
PAOLO PASICOLAN, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Thank you for having me.
HEMMER: At this point, you heard what Mike was reporting, the defense minister saying it's al Qaeda or some sort of connection, splinter group to al Qaeda. Your read on this is what based on Indonesian recent history?
PASICOLAN: Well, we're not really surprised that this attack happened in Indonesia. I mean, we're all appalled and we are very concerned of what's happening over there, but of all the countries in Southeast Asia with significant militant Muslim groups, that includes, like the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia has been the country who has cracked down the least, or has been least active in trying to crack down on terrorism. So, unfortunately, we saw this coming.
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: Why is that, and have you detected in any sense or any degree a willingness to change that approach and indeed start cracking down?
PASICOLAN: Well, first, the Indonesian government is concerned that if they did crack down on Islamic militancy, they would somehow hurt their constituency, the moderate Muslims, and that moderate Muslims would shy away from the ruling coalition. However, I think this should be the first event that changes their mind.
HEMMER: And you think they will act or not?
PASICOLAN: I think they have to act at this point in time, because there has been overwhelming international condemnation of their inaction, because their inaction has essentially encouraged al Qaeda militants to flee to Indonesia because they are kind of a safe haven because they haven't acted.
HEMMER: Look at the population in Indonesia, well over 200 million people. The island of Java is one of the most densely populated regions in the world. Not to indicate that because you have a crowded city that it could foster terrorism, but is it easy to hide in that country? It would appear at this point, if the government is not willing to do it, and you have all these different people living in a very tightly-packed area, it might be a fertile ground for making something like this take root and grow. Correct or not? PASICOLAN: I think that's very true, although the bigger point is it's not so much the population or amount of people so much as law and order, and the willingness of the government and the police force to really investigate terrorist suspects.
HEMMER: Why is it, then, to date, anyway, at this point, there's been no claim of responsibility? Does that indicate anything?
PASICOLAN: I don't think so, because if you remember, Osama bin Laden, despite overwhelming evidence, has still -- still denies the attacks on September 11.
HEMMER: Also in Indonesia, Paolo, quickly, one final point here.
What is the biggest concern for Jakarta? Is it their own economy, knowing that they're going to lose a lot of tourist dollars right now, which is very critical to many parts of that country, or is it the image thing, about how the outside world looks at Indonesia and whether or not it is truly living up to an agreement, a verbal agreement, being that to crack down?
PASICOLAN: I think their biggest concern is going to be to balance their response that they have to take against terrorism. At the same time, making sure that they're not doing this just because the West says so, and they're not doing this against Muslims in general, but fundamentalist, violent Islamic militants.
HEMMER: Thank you. Paolo Pasicolan, Heritage Foundation. Something we will track. Devastating attacks there late on Saturday night. Thanks for your time.
PASICOLAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
