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American Morning

John Muhammad's Military Training

Aired October 25, 2002 - 07:45   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: More details beginning to emerge about the military career of John Muhammad. While in the Army, Muhammad didn't receive sniper training, but he did receive a marksmanship badge with an expert rating in the use of the M-16 rifle. That is the highest possible rating you can get.
Joining us now to talk from Atlanta about Muhammad's training, let's turn to retired Army Sergeant Major Eric Haney, CNN's firearms analyst.

Good morning.

SGT. MAJ. ERIC HANEY, CNN FIREARMS ANALYST: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: So, tell us a little bit about the training that he went through to be able to shoot an M-16 as effectively as he apparently did.

HANEY: Well, actually his training is the minimal standard. He was a support troop, so he qualified with his rifle once a year, and he probably fired, oh, somewhere around 75 rounds during the course of that year. And thankfully, that was the extent of his training, because we see that three people were wounded rather than killed outright, and one person was missed completely.

ZAHN: And that would have been the first shot fired in the Michaels craft store?

HANEY: Yes, we believe that. And you know, there may have been other people missed that we didn't find evidence of a round impacting somewhere. We don't know that.

ZAHN: Let's talk about some of the methods investigators believe to have been used in planning out this attack. Apparently, it would seem pretty obvious these guys were familiar with the area. Let's talk about this representation of the car as a killing machine. Where would they have learned to set up the trunk of a car to do what they are accused of doing?

HANEY: Well, I've been thinking about that one since we did find out it was a car. And I do remember that there's been the use by some gang members of placing shooters in the trunk of a car with the lid pulled down, and they pull up and do a real quick stop in a version of a drive-by shooting. But I've never seen anyone do this with a car itself. It's a little bit difficult, and they went to some -- to do some work with this. So, there's a degree of cleverness that's a little bit surprising here. ZAHN: How hard would it be to shoot from this position inside the closed lid of a trunk?

HANEY: Not very hard at all, apparently, with the seat folded up so that the person could stretch out behind it. It's the same as lying out on the ground or lying on a couch. It's not a bad place to shoot from. And the apertures that they fired through don't have to be very large, because your movement angle is very slight. All you have to do is be able to see through it, and room enough for the bullet to fly out of it.

ZAHN: You know, you look at this picture, and we're going to put it up one more time, and it all seems so clinical when we're talking about it. But this really...

HANEY: It really does.

ZAHN: Does it just make you sick to see this representation?

HANEY: It's utterly chilling just to see that, and just that one depiction, a drawing of a human being lying in a concealed position in a vehicle with the objective of killing other humans. And who knows why? Only the perpetrators of this know what they were doing and why they were doing it. And I'll just about believe that they can't even articulate it to you, other than they hated society.

ZAHN: Let's talk about where you think Mohammad might have gotten this gun. According to "The New York Times" this morning, apparently, Mr. Muhammad shouldn't have even been able to put his hands on the weapon, because of a domestic protective order taken out in March of the year 2000 by the woman he was then married to.

HANEY: Well, we don't know that yet, and I'm sure that the authorities are going to find out. But I'll give you this about weapons. You know, stolen items across the country, when the thieves hawk those things, they always sell them to a fence, and then you sell at a discount. There's one device that never sells at a discount. In fact, the cost of it goes up when it's hot, and that's a weapon.

And we see that all across the nation. States that have lesser restrictions on the sales of weapons, people buy them legally, and there are some folks that will take them to another part of the country and sell them at a great profit. So, if someone is intent on getting their hands on a weapon, they'll find it.

ZAHN: Do you think these two suspects at this hour are tied to a larger organization based on what you know?

HANEY: No, I don't. I believe this was a small conspiracy. It grew out of whatever the reasons Muhammad had for his detestation of society, probably everybody was wrong except for him. And his young stepson, he prevailed on him, more than likely, just to come along with him. And we understand, too, fantasy and delusion of youth that can go along with some rotten things sometimes.

ZAHN: It's interesting that you talk about that, because we just spoke with one of his former brother-in-laws who described him as a very arrogant man, and said that winning...

HANEY: Yes.

ZAHN: ... was very important to him.

HANEY: Well, certainly control was a big thing, and I've seen some pundits and I've heard some on the radio on the national talk shows trying to make a great deal of the fact that he is a Muslim, that he is black, and saying, "black Muslim."

I will give you this, and everyone knows that people were killed regardless of their race in that area, and I'm certain no one was checked for their religious affiliation. He could have done this if he was a hard-shell, foot-washing Baptist.

ZAHN: Yes, you could be right. Eric Haney, thanks -- always appreciate your perspective. See you a little bit later on this morning.

HANEY: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.






Aired October 25, 2002 - 07:45   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: More details beginning to emerge about the military career of John Muhammad. While in the Army, Muhammad didn't receive sniper training, but he did receive a marksmanship badge with an expert rating in the use of the M-16 rifle. That is the highest possible rating you can get.
Joining us now to talk from Atlanta about Muhammad's training, let's turn to retired Army Sergeant Major Eric Haney, CNN's firearms analyst.

Good morning.

SGT. MAJ. ERIC HANEY, CNN FIREARMS ANALYST: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: So, tell us a little bit about the training that he went through to be able to shoot an M-16 as effectively as he apparently did.

HANEY: Well, actually his training is the minimal standard. He was a support troop, so he qualified with his rifle once a year, and he probably fired, oh, somewhere around 75 rounds during the course of that year. And thankfully, that was the extent of his training, because we see that three people were wounded rather than killed outright, and one person was missed completely.

ZAHN: And that would have been the first shot fired in the Michaels craft store?

HANEY: Yes, we believe that. And you know, there may have been other people missed that we didn't find evidence of a round impacting somewhere. We don't know that.

ZAHN: Let's talk about some of the methods investigators believe to have been used in planning out this attack. Apparently, it would seem pretty obvious these guys were familiar with the area. Let's talk about this representation of the car as a killing machine. Where would they have learned to set up the trunk of a car to do what they are accused of doing?

HANEY: Well, I've been thinking about that one since we did find out it was a car. And I do remember that there's been the use by some gang members of placing shooters in the trunk of a car with the lid pulled down, and they pull up and do a real quick stop in a version of a drive-by shooting. But I've never seen anyone do this with a car itself. It's a little bit difficult, and they went to some -- to do some work with this. So, there's a degree of cleverness that's a little bit surprising here. ZAHN: How hard would it be to shoot from this position inside the closed lid of a trunk?

HANEY: Not very hard at all, apparently, with the seat folded up so that the person could stretch out behind it. It's the same as lying out on the ground or lying on a couch. It's not a bad place to shoot from. And the apertures that they fired through don't have to be very large, because your movement angle is very slight. All you have to do is be able to see through it, and room enough for the bullet to fly out of it.

ZAHN: You know, you look at this picture, and we're going to put it up one more time, and it all seems so clinical when we're talking about it. But this really...

HANEY: It really does.

ZAHN: Does it just make you sick to see this representation?

HANEY: It's utterly chilling just to see that, and just that one depiction, a drawing of a human being lying in a concealed position in a vehicle with the objective of killing other humans. And who knows why? Only the perpetrators of this know what they were doing and why they were doing it. And I'll just about believe that they can't even articulate it to you, other than they hated society.

ZAHN: Let's talk about where you think Mohammad might have gotten this gun. According to "The New York Times" this morning, apparently, Mr. Muhammad shouldn't have even been able to put his hands on the weapon, because of a domestic protective order taken out in March of the year 2000 by the woman he was then married to.

HANEY: Well, we don't know that yet, and I'm sure that the authorities are going to find out. But I'll give you this about weapons. You know, stolen items across the country, when the thieves hawk those things, they always sell them to a fence, and then you sell at a discount. There's one device that never sells at a discount. In fact, the cost of it goes up when it's hot, and that's a weapon.

And we see that all across the nation. States that have lesser restrictions on the sales of weapons, people buy them legally, and there are some folks that will take them to another part of the country and sell them at a great profit. So, if someone is intent on getting their hands on a weapon, they'll find it.

ZAHN: Do you think these two suspects at this hour are tied to a larger organization based on what you know?

HANEY: No, I don't. I believe this was a small conspiracy. It grew out of whatever the reasons Muhammad had for his detestation of society, probably everybody was wrong except for him. And his young stepson, he prevailed on him, more than likely, just to come along with him. And we understand, too, fantasy and delusion of youth that can go along with some rotten things sometimes.

ZAHN: It's interesting that you talk about that, because we just spoke with one of his former brother-in-laws who described him as a very arrogant man, and said that winning...

HANEY: Yes.

ZAHN: ... was very important to him.

HANEY: Well, certainly control was a big thing, and I've seen some pundits and I've heard some on the radio on the national talk shows trying to make a great deal of the fact that he is a Muslim, that he is black, and saying, "black Muslim."

I will give you this, and everyone knows that people were killed regardless of their race in that area, and I'm certain no one was checked for their religious affiliation. He could have done this if he was a hard-shell, foot-washing Baptist.

ZAHN: Yes, you could be right. Eric Haney, thanks -- always appreciate your perspective. See you a little bit later on this morning.

HANEY: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.