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American Morning
We're Beginning to Learn More About Sniper Suspects
Aired October 30, 2002 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the sniper investigation. We're just beginning to learn a little bit more about sniper suspects John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. A witness has come forward to say he and Muhammad shared an interest in guns. And last night in a conversation with Larry King, Muhammad's first wife stopped just short of saying there was a link between guns and violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: Did he like guns? Did he talk about killing people?
CAROL WILLIAMS, MUHAMMAD'S EX-WIFE: He was always fascinated with guns.
KING: Did he have guns?
WILLIAMS: No, not that I know of.
KING: Well, by fascinated you mean what?
WILLIAMS: He always liked guns. I mean my father is a hunter. He, you know, loved to see his guns and on one occasion we had a kind of a little problem with a gun butt.
KING: What do you mean?
WILLIAMS: I'd just really rather not get into it, you know? Not right now anyway.
KING: Were you threatened with a gun?
WILLIAMS: Not actually threatened, but just something to do with a gun.
KING: But still, you had no idea that he would be...
WILLIAMS: None. None.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: When they were captured, the sniper suspects were asleep in a 12-year-old car. But now investigators say inside that car they found high tech gear that the two might have used during the killing spree in which they are charged.
Let's check in with Patty Davis, who joins us by, from our little investigation central there with all the latest details -- good morning, Patty.
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Boy, it's so interesting how we get bits and pieces of this information, isn't it?
DAVIS: Yes, and the little bit, the new little bit that came out yesterday was that the ATF and the FBI listed in the criminal complaint, the affidavit attached to that criminal complaint, of what appears to be a mound of evidence that would appear to link these two men to the Washington murder spree.
Now, included in that list, the Bushmaster rifle, of course, behind the seat, the back seat of that 1990 blue Chevy Caprice. Also, a brown glove similar to the one found at the last killing. That was the killing of Conrad Johnson. That was in Silver Spring.
Now, under a paper towel outside the car, a single .223 bullet. Also, a global positioning satellite found in the car, two way radios, shooting gloves.
Now, the criminal complaint filed yesterday charges Muhammad with 20 counts including conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, interstate transportation in the aid of racketeering, firing a weapon in a school zone and other charges, as well.
Now, the federal government says that it will seek the death penalty against Muhammad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There are already people who are saying that they don't think the ultimate penalties ought to be available, whether they're editorialists or others who don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that the ultimate sanction ought to be available here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: John Lee Malvo, the 17-year-old, not named in this federal criminal complaint. He's a juvenile, but a friend listed in the affidavit, that FBI/ATF, saying that Muhammad often referred to him as "sniper" -- Paula.
ZAHN: And this was months before these shootings got under way?
DAVIS: That's right, absolutely. Months before the shootings got under way and even Muhammad's son saying on that Larry King interview last night that Muhammad was a manipulator and he easily could have manipulated Malvo.
ZAHN: Just your quick reaction to that "New York Times" piece of reporting suggesting that two detectives thought they were getting fairly close to a confession when they were told they had to transfer Mr. Muhammad elsewhere. DAVIS: That's right, several different accounts of exactly what happened there. CNN does not have independent confirmation of that particular account. But what we have been told specifically is that both of these men have been uncooperative, so uncooperative, in fact, that Malvo in one instance freed himself from his handcuffs in the interrogation room, climbed into the duct work trying to escape.
So it appears from our sources that they are being uncooperative. But, of course, several different accounts out there -- Paula.
ZAHN: That always seems to be the case.
Patty Davis, thanks so much. Appreciate the update.
Now, during the three week D.C. area shooting spree, investigators say the sniper suspects mentioned a calm front that allowed them to blend in and fool just about everyone who came into contact with them.
David Mattingly is in that gym.
He joins us now live from Silver Spring, Maryland -- good morning, David.
How often did they go there?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, they went here about five or six times and it's really hitting home at this YMCA because imagine just living in this area and living through the fear and the anxiety the sniper attacks caused and then you see the pictures of Muhammad and Malvo on the news and realize hey, I might have been working out right next to these guys.
Well, that's the sort of realization that's hitting home here and hitting home very hard at this suburban YMCA.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEVE KANE, SILVER SPRING YMCA: The older fellow was, seemed to be talkative. The younger fellow was always very quiet, never said a word. They were always together.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The sniper had just claimed his tenth victim, a bus driver in Silver Spring, Maryland. The very next day, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo went for a workout and sauna at the local YMCA, just like they had already done four or five times over the last month or so.
SHARON DOUGLAS, SILVER SPRING YMCA: I can't believe it and I can't believe I was talking to them and I can't believe I was talking to them and I can't believe I was so close, like how me and you were, so, like that's how close me and them were. And I never even got the impression like something's wrong, oh, you know?
MATTINGLY: And it's a story now being told over and over by people stunned to find they crossed paths with the alleged killers. October 7, hours after a 13-year-old boy is wounded by the sniper, sandwich store employee Marty Ruby comes face to face with John Muhammad.
MARTY RUBY, SUBWAY EMPLOYEE: And I don't think it really hit me until recently when people have came up and said, you know, I'm glad you're still here, you know? Because he could have shot any of us.
MATTINGLY: And stories abound. As the pictures of the two suspects continue to job memories, the list of possible encounters grows, some of them mysterious, others unnerving. Montgomery County, for example, site of six sniper shootings, Muhammad and Malvo are spotted in a shop looking for blinds. Fredericksburg, a man killed while pumping gas, a pizza man delivers to Muhammad at a hotel room hours later near the scene of the crime.
Almost everyone, however, having the same experience, telling of suspects who were polite, smiling and not at all threatening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: And it's this pleasant demeanor that may have allowed them to move in and out of this area freely without arousing suspicion -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, David, a lot of questions are being raised about the source of their money. Is it true they actually talked their way into the YMCA?
MATTINGLY: On their last visit here, there is a $3 fee that you're supposed to pay if you want to come in here as a visitor and work out. They did not have the $3 that day and they actually talked their way in to work out without paying the $3, suggesting that possibly they didn't have any money at all that last day they were here.
ZAHN: And I understand they tipped the pizza guy, what, one cent?
MATTINGLY: That's right. I talked to that pizza guy. He told me that he delivered the pizza to them. Muhammad answered the door, took the pizza and paid him for the pizza and left him a one cent tip. So he did have money to pay for the actual pizza, but didn't have money for a tip. So, again, suggesting that they might have been a little strapped for cash at the time.
ZAHN: That's interesting because in an editorial in the "Wall Street Journal," they really are playing up the idea the FBI should continue to investigate a terrorism angle here because when you look at the cost of the laptop computer and the global positioning system that was found in the car, that costs some big bucks.
MATTINGLY: That's right. And the fact that they were sleeping in their car, particularly at that Subway sandwich shop, Muhammad did pull in there and ask if he could rest in the car in that parking lot, again, suggesting that he may not have had the money for a hotel room that night. So a lot of unanswered questions coming up from this and people, every time they see the picture, more people having their memories jogged that they might have run into these people and, again, a lot more questions raised as time goes on.
ZAHN: David Mattingly, thanks so much.
Appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 30, 2002 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the sniper investigation. We're just beginning to learn a little bit more about sniper suspects John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo. A witness has come forward to say he and Muhammad shared an interest in guns. And last night in a conversation with Larry King, Muhammad's first wife stopped just short of saying there was a link between guns and violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: Did he like guns? Did he talk about killing people?
CAROL WILLIAMS, MUHAMMAD'S EX-WIFE: He was always fascinated with guns.
KING: Did he have guns?
WILLIAMS: No, not that I know of.
KING: Well, by fascinated you mean what?
WILLIAMS: He always liked guns. I mean my father is a hunter. He, you know, loved to see his guns and on one occasion we had a kind of a little problem with a gun butt.
KING: What do you mean?
WILLIAMS: I'd just really rather not get into it, you know? Not right now anyway.
KING: Were you threatened with a gun?
WILLIAMS: Not actually threatened, but just something to do with a gun.
KING: But still, you had no idea that he would be...
WILLIAMS: None. None.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: When they were captured, the sniper suspects were asleep in a 12-year-old car. But now investigators say inside that car they found high tech gear that the two might have used during the killing spree in which they are charged.
Let's check in with Patty Davis, who joins us by, from our little investigation central there with all the latest details -- good morning, Patty.
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Boy, it's so interesting how we get bits and pieces of this information, isn't it?
DAVIS: Yes, and the little bit, the new little bit that came out yesterday was that the ATF and the FBI listed in the criminal complaint, the affidavit attached to that criminal complaint, of what appears to be a mound of evidence that would appear to link these two men to the Washington murder spree.
Now, included in that list, the Bushmaster rifle, of course, behind the seat, the back seat of that 1990 blue Chevy Caprice. Also, a brown glove similar to the one found at the last killing. That was the killing of Conrad Johnson. That was in Silver Spring.
Now, under a paper towel outside the car, a single .223 bullet. Also, a global positioning satellite found in the car, two way radios, shooting gloves.
Now, the criminal complaint filed yesterday charges Muhammad with 20 counts including conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, interstate transportation in the aid of racketeering, firing a weapon in a school zone and other charges, as well.
Now, the federal government says that it will seek the death penalty against Muhammad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There are already people who are saying that they don't think the ultimate penalties ought to be available, whether they're editorialists or others who don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that the ultimate sanction ought to be available here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: John Lee Malvo, the 17-year-old, not named in this federal criminal complaint. He's a juvenile, but a friend listed in the affidavit, that FBI/ATF, saying that Muhammad often referred to him as "sniper" -- Paula.
ZAHN: And this was months before these shootings got under way?
DAVIS: That's right, absolutely. Months before the shootings got under way and even Muhammad's son saying on that Larry King interview last night that Muhammad was a manipulator and he easily could have manipulated Malvo.
ZAHN: Just your quick reaction to that "New York Times" piece of reporting suggesting that two detectives thought they were getting fairly close to a confession when they were told they had to transfer Mr. Muhammad elsewhere. DAVIS: That's right, several different accounts of exactly what happened there. CNN does not have independent confirmation of that particular account. But what we have been told specifically is that both of these men have been uncooperative, so uncooperative, in fact, that Malvo in one instance freed himself from his handcuffs in the interrogation room, climbed into the duct work trying to escape.
So it appears from our sources that they are being uncooperative. But, of course, several different accounts out there -- Paula.
ZAHN: That always seems to be the case.
Patty Davis, thanks so much. Appreciate the update.
Now, during the three week D.C. area shooting spree, investigators say the sniper suspects mentioned a calm front that allowed them to blend in and fool just about everyone who came into contact with them.
David Mattingly is in that gym.
He joins us now live from Silver Spring, Maryland -- good morning, David.
How often did they go there?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Paula, they went here about five or six times and it's really hitting home at this YMCA because imagine just living in this area and living through the fear and the anxiety the sniper attacks caused and then you see the pictures of Muhammad and Malvo on the news and realize hey, I might have been working out right next to these guys.
Well, that's the sort of realization that's hitting home here and hitting home very hard at this suburban YMCA.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEVE KANE, SILVER SPRING YMCA: The older fellow was, seemed to be talkative. The younger fellow was always very quiet, never said a word. They were always together.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The sniper had just claimed his tenth victim, a bus driver in Silver Spring, Maryland. The very next day, John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo went for a workout and sauna at the local YMCA, just like they had already done four or five times over the last month or so.
SHARON DOUGLAS, SILVER SPRING YMCA: I can't believe it and I can't believe I was talking to them and I can't believe I was talking to them and I can't believe I was so close, like how me and you were, so, like that's how close me and them were. And I never even got the impression like something's wrong, oh, you know?
MATTINGLY: And it's a story now being told over and over by people stunned to find they crossed paths with the alleged killers. October 7, hours after a 13-year-old boy is wounded by the sniper, sandwich store employee Marty Ruby comes face to face with John Muhammad.
MARTY RUBY, SUBWAY EMPLOYEE: And I don't think it really hit me until recently when people have came up and said, you know, I'm glad you're still here, you know? Because he could have shot any of us.
MATTINGLY: And stories abound. As the pictures of the two suspects continue to job memories, the list of possible encounters grows, some of them mysterious, others unnerving. Montgomery County, for example, site of six sniper shootings, Muhammad and Malvo are spotted in a shop looking for blinds. Fredericksburg, a man killed while pumping gas, a pizza man delivers to Muhammad at a hotel room hours later near the scene of the crime.
Almost everyone, however, having the same experience, telling of suspects who were polite, smiling and not at all threatening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: And it's this pleasant demeanor that may have allowed them to move in and out of this area freely without arousing suspicion -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, David, a lot of questions are being raised about the source of their money. Is it true they actually talked their way into the YMCA?
MATTINGLY: On their last visit here, there is a $3 fee that you're supposed to pay if you want to come in here as a visitor and work out. They did not have the $3 that day and they actually talked their way in to work out without paying the $3, suggesting that possibly they didn't have any money at all that last day they were here.
ZAHN: And I understand they tipped the pizza guy, what, one cent?
MATTINGLY: That's right. I talked to that pizza guy. He told me that he delivered the pizza to them. Muhammad answered the door, took the pizza and paid him for the pizza and left him a one cent tip. So he did have money to pay for the actual pizza, but didn't have money for a tip. So, again, suggesting that they might have been a little strapped for cash at the time.
ZAHN: That's interesting because in an editorial in the "Wall Street Journal," they really are playing up the idea the FBI should continue to investigate a terrorism angle here because when you look at the cost of the laptop computer and the global positioning system that was found in the car, that costs some big bucks.
MATTINGLY: That's right. And the fact that they were sleeping in their car, particularly at that Subway sandwich shop, Muhammad did pull in there and ask if he could rest in the car in that parking lot, again, suggesting that he may not have had the money for a hotel room that night. So a lot of unanswered questions coming up from this and people, every time they see the picture, more people having their memories jogged that they might have run into these people and, again, a lot more questions raised as time goes on.
ZAHN: David Mattingly, thanks so much.
Appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
