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American Morning

Conquering Evil

Aired October 31, 2002 - 08:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: George W. Bush isn't the first president to consider how to turn a dictatorship into a democracy. During World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman worked to make sure Germany would never threaten the world. That the subject of the book "The Conquerors" by Michael Beschloss who joins me now. His book includes some revelations about what the U.S. knew about Nazi death camps and when they knew it. Michael Beschloss joins me now.
Good morning.

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, HISTORIAN: Thanks. Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Congratulations.

BESCHLOSS: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: This is a labor of love -- 10 years to finish this book?

BESCHLOSS: Ten years, and a lot of that is because a lot of the new documents have come out in recent years telling us about the Holocaust and also what was going on inside Nazi Germany.

ZAHN: There has always been suspicions that FDR knew more than was stated publicly. What did you unearth?

BESCHLOSS: He knew a lot in 1942. What troubled me for almost two years, Roosevelt knew a lot about the fact that the Nazis were trying to murder an entire people, the Jewish people, and knowing Roosevelt, just as a presidential historian, I would have expected him to give a speech saying, this is what we Americans are fighting against, you should know, you Americans, what is going on inside Nazi Germany. He did not make that public, and he never even said in public that the Nazis should worry about if we Allies win the war, we would penalize the fact they had tried to do this horrible thing.

ZAHN: Why don't you think he made those statements?

BESCHLOSS: I think he was timid, and I think one reason is he was worried about fighting a war for the Jews. He once said to one of his cabinet, Henry Morganfeld (ph), who was a Jewish and a Catholic official, Leo Crowley (ph), he said, you should remember, this is a Protestant country, and you Jews and Catholics are here under sufferance. You have to go along with everything I want.

ZAHN: So how much does this scar his legacy?

BESCHLOSS: I think it casts a shadow. The most important thing about Roosevelt always to remember is he is the one who won World War II, led us into that victory. Had he not done that, we would not be living in a happy world today. Many of us would not even be living. But, at the same time, you always have to look at a president in terms of how he handles the tough calls. One of the biggest events of the 20th century, if not the largest, was the Holocaust. And on that, Roosevelt really did not do very well.

ZAHN: Because you worked on this so long and read so much, what was it you think is the most interesting piece of information you learned about Harry Truman that we might not know already?

BESCHLOSS: One thing that was wonderful about Truman was, it's the American story that anyone can become president. He became that without much preparation and made great decisions. But, at the same time, there was an undercurrent. For instance, when it was revealed finally that the death caps had been open and you had horrible pictures on the front of newspapers at Buchenwald (ph) and Belsen (ph), I looked in Truman's diaries and he continued to make these sort of petty anti-Semitic comments, like "The Jews claim they are God's chosen people. I think God had better judgment." And knowing Truman, he was a humane man. I couldn't understand how someone with his values, especially even anti-Semites were saying, look at these horrible death caps, I've got to re-evaluate my own values, Truman could have gone on that way.

ZAHN: So what was that all about then?

BESCHLOSS: I think Truman was a complex guy, on the large things, recognition of Israel, strategy that finally won the Cold War, Truman was a great president. But what's fascinating about these guys, Paula, is it's never one thing. There is always light and dark. And much of the dark in Truman's life is even though he became a president of huge stature, there was this sort of petty undercurrent, a very sort of small town retro comments and values.

ZAHN: What is it that the current president could learn from some of these stories you're sharing with us today, particularly at a time when there is much debate about whether it makes sense to go to war against Iraq now?

BESCHLOSS: Absolutely. I think he will, George W. Bush, look back to the last time America succeeded in doing this. That was Nazi Germany. If we were 1945, many Americans thought that Germany would once again produce another Hitler and start another World War. The reason it didn't is because of what America did in World War II and afterwards. That is one lesson for us now with Iraq, and that is if we are going to do this war, Americans have to be totally behind it, and not only fight a war to unconditional surrender, topple Saddam, but be prepared for the fact that if Iraq is going to become a democracy, we may have to stay there for many years to create things like schools, and a free press. Our military may have to be there for a long time.

ZAHN: Based on the polls you've seen, do you think the American public is, a, that patient, and, b, willing to spend that kind of money? BESCHLOSS: I think they may well not be. It's a different situation from 1945. But if we go through the experience of a war and if President Bush says to Americans, we've now done half of the job, let's finish it and have a beacon of democracy in the Middle East, people might change their minds.

ZAHN: Too bad we can't clone you and put you in classrooms and high schools across America to make history come alive for all of these kids.

BESCHLOSS: Thanks you so much.

ZAHN: It just really is a treat to meet you. Congratulations on "The Conquerors." Thank you for dropping by.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 31, 2002 - 08:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: George W. Bush isn't the first president to consider how to turn a dictatorship into a democracy. During World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman worked to make sure Germany would never threaten the world. That the subject of the book "The Conquerors" by Michael Beschloss who joins me now. His book includes some revelations about what the U.S. knew about Nazi death camps and when they knew it. Michael Beschloss joins me now.
Good morning.

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, HISTORIAN: Thanks. Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Congratulations.

BESCHLOSS: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: This is a labor of love -- 10 years to finish this book?

BESCHLOSS: Ten years, and a lot of that is because a lot of the new documents have come out in recent years telling us about the Holocaust and also what was going on inside Nazi Germany.

ZAHN: There has always been suspicions that FDR knew more than was stated publicly. What did you unearth?

BESCHLOSS: He knew a lot in 1942. What troubled me for almost two years, Roosevelt knew a lot about the fact that the Nazis were trying to murder an entire people, the Jewish people, and knowing Roosevelt, just as a presidential historian, I would have expected him to give a speech saying, this is what we Americans are fighting against, you should know, you Americans, what is going on inside Nazi Germany. He did not make that public, and he never even said in public that the Nazis should worry about if we Allies win the war, we would penalize the fact they had tried to do this horrible thing.

ZAHN: Why don't you think he made those statements?

BESCHLOSS: I think he was timid, and I think one reason is he was worried about fighting a war for the Jews. He once said to one of his cabinet, Henry Morganfeld (ph), who was a Jewish and a Catholic official, Leo Crowley (ph), he said, you should remember, this is a Protestant country, and you Jews and Catholics are here under sufferance. You have to go along with everything I want.

ZAHN: So how much does this scar his legacy?

BESCHLOSS: I think it casts a shadow. The most important thing about Roosevelt always to remember is he is the one who won World War II, led us into that victory. Had he not done that, we would not be living in a happy world today. Many of us would not even be living. But, at the same time, you always have to look at a president in terms of how he handles the tough calls. One of the biggest events of the 20th century, if not the largest, was the Holocaust. And on that, Roosevelt really did not do very well.

ZAHN: Because you worked on this so long and read so much, what was it you think is the most interesting piece of information you learned about Harry Truman that we might not know already?

BESCHLOSS: One thing that was wonderful about Truman was, it's the American story that anyone can become president. He became that without much preparation and made great decisions. But, at the same time, there was an undercurrent. For instance, when it was revealed finally that the death caps had been open and you had horrible pictures on the front of newspapers at Buchenwald (ph) and Belsen (ph), I looked in Truman's diaries and he continued to make these sort of petty anti-Semitic comments, like "The Jews claim they are God's chosen people. I think God had better judgment." And knowing Truman, he was a humane man. I couldn't understand how someone with his values, especially even anti-Semites were saying, look at these horrible death caps, I've got to re-evaluate my own values, Truman could have gone on that way.

ZAHN: So what was that all about then?

BESCHLOSS: I think Truman was a complex guy, on the large things, recognition of Israel, strategy that finally won the Cold War, Truman was a great president. But what's fascinating about these guys, Paula, is it's never one thing. There is always light and dark. And much of the dark in Truman's life is even though he became a president of huge stature, there was this sort of petty undercurrent, a very sort of small town retro comments and values.

ZAHN: What is it that the current president could learn from some of these stories you're sharing with us today, particularly at a time when there is much debate about whether it makes sense to go to war against Iraq now?

BESCHLOSS: Absolutely. I think he will, George W. Bush, look back to the last time America succeeded in doing this. That was Nazi Germany. If we were 1945, many Americans thought that Germany would once again produce another Hitler and start another World War. The reason it didn't is because of what America did in World War II and afterwards. That is one lesson for us now with Iraq, and that is if we are going to do this war, Americans have to be totally behind it, and not only fight a war to unconditional surrender, topple Saddam, but be prepared for the fact that if Iraq is going to become a democracy, we may have to stay there for many years to create things like schools, and a free press. Our military may have to be there for a long time.

ZAHN: Based on the polls you've seen, do you think the American public is, a, that patient, and, b, willing to spend that kind of money? BESCHLOSS: I think they may well not be. It's a different situation from 1945. But if we go through the experience of a war and if President Bush says to Americans, we've now done half of the job, let's finish it and have a beacon of democracy in the Middle East, people might change their minds.

ZAHN: Too bad we can't clone you and put you in classrooms and high schools across America to make history come alive for all of these kids.

BESCHLOSS: Thanks you so much.

ZAHN: It just really is a treat to meet you. Congratulations on "The Conquerors." Thank you for dropping by.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com