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American Morning
Jury in Florida Finds Gun Distributor Partly Liable in Shooting
Aired November 15, 2002 - 08:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We are now going to turn our attention to a story back home. A jury in Florida has found a gun distributor partly liable in the shooting death of a teen. In the case that grabbed the nation's attention, Barry Grunow was shot by a 13-year-old student who was sentenced to 28 years in prison for shooting Grunow with a stolen gun. And joining me now to talk about this, as well as the deal that was reached yesterday in the case of the King brothers is our legal correspondent Jeffrey Toobin.
How are you this morning?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
ZAHN: Let's go back to the first case. You had a teenager actually being caught on tape committing the crime with a gun that he had stolen from an adult. How did this lawsuit succeed in pinning the blame on the distributor?
TOOBIN: I don't think it really succeeded that much. Late in the Clinton administration, a lot of the same trial lawyers who were behind all the attacks to the tobacco companies shifted their attacks to the gun distributors, to try to basically break that industry, in much the same way that the tobacco litigation was done. And there have been lots of these lawsuits filed, and they've mostly been not very successful. And here, you have a case where the plaintiff succeeded in finding the gun distributor 5 percent liable. So it was only $1.2 million. It was not a big success. The gun distributors are very happy today.
Basically, the idea was that guns, these small Saturday night special type guns are so inherently dangerous that anyone who distributes them has to know that they will be used in a crime. The jury didn't really buy that theory much.
ZAHN: Let's look at the further breakdown by the jury, because you mentioned that one statistic. So you had 50 percent who pin the blame on the gun owner who kept the gun in an unlocked drawer, and then 45 percent to the school board, where the shooting actually took place, and 5 percent to the distributor, but of those three, only the distributor, as you have mentioned, is named in the lawsuit.
So how is it that the widow is going to recover any of these damages?
TOOBIN: It's going to be difficult. Certainly, the 50 percent for the old man who he stole the gun from, they will never get that money. The school board has some money, and they might get it. What happens with Nathan Brazill is he was allowed to return to school after it was pretty clear he was in a dangerous mood. That's why they're so angry at the school board.
But you know, the key issue here, the deep pocket that the trial lawyers are interested in tapping are these gun distributors and the people who make all of the money off the guns, but juries have just been very reluctant to say that guns are so inherently dangerous that by distributing them, you're liable for the crimes that other people commit with them.
ZAHN: Where does the case go from here?
TOOBIN: It probably goes to some sort of much more modest settlement. The total award here was $24 million. There probably will be some sort of small settlement with the gun distributor, but to avoid an appeal, and the long process that could follow, but not a lot of money here, and there is not going to be -- no plaintiffs' lawyers will view this as a key to unlocking great liability. They still have yet to do that.
ZAHN: Let's turn our attention to the King case, which I know you discussed a lot yesterday afternoon, and we followed a lot along the way. So you have the two of them going off to prison for a while. Now we spoke with both the prosecutor in this case today, who felt -- or he felt that this is probably the best you could get to. He didn't say it was necessarily justice for the father who lost his life and the prosecutor saying this was fair. Was it fair?
TOOBIN: You know, it seemed pretty fair to me. Sanity prevailed after a long struggle here. What was so bizarre about this case was that you had the prosecutor coming up with two contradictory theories, trying them both to separate juries within a week to one another.
ZAHN: The two boys accused and Rick Chavez, the child molester.
TOOBIN: Rick Chavez was acquitted; the boys were convicted. The judge, I thought belatedly, at least he did the right thing eventually, saying you can't do this, this is wrong, I'm overturning the conviction. And then in a very unusual move, he basically ordered a plea bargain to take place. He said mediate this case, sort of make a deal so we don't have to try this again, and they did. And It seemed like a deal where one boy gets seven years, the other boy gets eight years. That seems more in line with what a 13 or 14-year-old should get.
ZAHN: I asked the defense attorney a question I guess she found inappropriate earlier this morning, about with all of the blame going around, how complicated this case was, who, in the end, would she hold responsible for the deaths in the end of the father. And she said that that was not appropriate to answer, and then she followed up to say, in a related question I asked, Ricky Chavez.
TOOBIN: You know, these kids beat this man to death with a baseball bat. You can feel sorry for these kids about their difficult lives, but you know, millions of kids have difficult lives without beating people to death with baseball bats. So I don't feel terribly sorry that they're in prison.
Remember, during the trial, we were looking at the possibility of life without parole for these 13-year-olds. That did seem excessive. A substantial prison time for a crime of this magnitude sure seems right to me.
ZAHN: Made the point they will be out in time to drink beer at the legal drinking age.
TOOBIN: They will, indeed. This was not a tough sentence at the end of the day.
ZAHN: Jeff Toobin, have a good weekend.
TOOBIN: You, too.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Shooting>
Aired November 15, 2002 - 08:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We are now going to turn our attention to a story back home. A jury in Florida has found a gun distributor partly liable in the shooting death of a teen. In the case that grabbed the nation's attention, Barry Grunow was shot by a 13-year-old student who was sentenced to 28 years in prison for shooting Grunow with a stolen gun. And joining me now to talk about this, as well as the deal that was reached yesterday in the case of the King brothers is our legal correspondent Jeffrey Toobin.
How are you this morning?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
ZAHN: Let's go back to the first case. You had a teenager actually being caught on tape committing the crime with a gun that he had stolen from an adult. How did this lawsuit succeed in pinning the blame on the distributor?
TOOBIN: I don't think it really succeeded that much. Late in the Clinton administration, a lot of the same trial lawyers who were behind all the attacks to the tobacco companies shifted their attacks to the gun distributors, to try to basically break that industry, in much the same way that the tobacco litigation was done. And there have been lots of these lawsuits filed, and they've mostly been not very successful. And here, you have a case where the plaintiff succeeded in finding the gun distributor 5 percent liable. So it was only $1.2 million. It was not a big success. The gun distributors are very happy today.
Basically, the idea was that guns, these small Saturday night special type guns are so inherently dangerous that anyone who distributes them has to know that they will be used in a crime. The jury didn't really buy that theory much.
ZAHN: Let's look at the further breakdown by the jury, because you mentioned that one statistic. So you had 50 percent who pin the blame on the gun owner who kept the gun in an unlocked drawer, and then 45 percent to the school board, where the shooting actually took place, and 5 percent to the distributor, but of those three, only the distributor, as you have mentioned, is named in the lawsuit.
So how is it that the widow is going to recover any of these damages?
TOOBIN: It's going to be difficult. Certainly, the 50 percent for the old man who he stole the gun from, they will never get that money. The school board has some money, and they might get it. What happens with Nathan Brazill is he was allowed to return to school after it was pretty clear he was in a dangerous mood. That's why they're so angry at the school board.
But you know, the key issue here, the deep pocket that the trial lawyers are interested in tapping are these gun distributors and the people who make all of the money off the guns, but juries have just been very reluctant to say that guns are so inherently dangerous that by distributing them, you're liable for the crimes that other people commit with them.
ZAHN: Where does the case go from here?
TOOBIN: It probably goes to some sort of much more modest settlement. The total award here was $24 million. There probably will be some sort of small settlement with the gun distributor, but to avoid an appeal, and the long process that could follow, but not a lot of money here, and there is not going to be -- no plaintiffs' lawyers will view this as a key to unlocking great liability. They still have yet to do that.
ZAHN: Let's turn our attention to the King case, which I know you discussed a lot yesterday afternoon, and we followed a lot along the way. So you have the two of them going off to prison for a while. Now we spoke with both the prosecutor in this case today, who felt -- or he felt that this is probably the best you could get to. He didn't say it was necessarily justice for the father who lost his life and the prosecutor saying this was fair. Was it fair?
TOOBIN: You know, it seemed pretty fair to me. Sanity prevailed after a long struggle here. What was so bizarre about this case was that you had the prosecutor coming up with two contradictory theories, trying them both to separate juries within a week to one another.
ZAHN: The two boys accused and Rick Chavez, the child molester.
TOOBIN: Rick Chavez was acquitted; the boys were convicted. The judge, I thought belatedly, at least he did the right thing eventually, saying you can't do this, this is wrong, I'm overturning the conviction. And then in a very unusual move, he basically ordered a plea bargain to take place. He said mediate this case, sort of make a deal so we don't have to try this again, and they did. And It seemed like a deal where one boy gets seven years, the other boy gets eight years. That seems more in line with what a 13 or 14-year-old should get.
ZAHN: I asked the defense attorney a question I guess she found inappropriate earlier this morning, about with all of the blame going around, how complicated this case was, who, in the end, would she hold responsible for the deaths in the end of the father. And she said that that was not appropriate to answer, and then she followed up to say, in a related question I asked, Ricky Chavez.
TOOBIN: You know, these kids beat this man to death with a baseball bat. You can feel sorry for these kids about their difficult lives, but you know, millions of kids have difficult lives without beating people to death with baseball bats. So I don't feel terribly sorry that they're in prison.
Remember, during the trial, we were looking at the possibility of life without parole for these 13-year-olds. That did seem excessive. A substantial prison time for a crime of this magnitude sure seems right to me.
ZAHN: Made the point they will be out in time to drink beer at the legal drinking age.
TOOBIN: They will, indeed. This was not a tough sentence at the end of the day.
ZAHN: Jeff Toobin, have a good weekend.
TOOBIN: You, too.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Shooting>
