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American Morning
Talk with Ambassador Joe Wilson
Aired November 18, 2002 - 08:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to Iraq. There are about 30 inspectors in the U.N. advance team that landed this morning in Baghdad. The team arrived in the Iraqi capital just a few hours ago. It was greeted by Iraqi military officials.
We're going to get the very latest now from Nic Robertson, who's standing by in Baghdad -- good morning, Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.
Well, first of all, they did what most people do when visiting a new city, which is check into their hotel. But we understand they've already left and gone to the old U.N. offices, where the last inspection teams were set up. We understand they're taking in cleaning equipment there.
Now, you might ask what is new about this team? Well, they have a stronger mandate. They've got more and newer equipment and also we understand they're better trained. And, very significantly, today they landed at the main international airport right very, very close to Baghdad, not 50 miles to the west of the city, where the previous teams were able to land.
But what's the same? Well, the same man was there to greet this U.N. team as greeted many of the other teams. That's the Iraqi interlocutor for the U.N. teams. He is Major General Hosam Amin. He is the head of the Iraqi national monitoring directorate. And he is the man Hans Blix will be talking with, mostly coming up in the next few weeks and months.
Hans Blix was very clear in what he said he'd come to do, he'd come to answer one question and that was had, has Iraq got any weapons of mass destruction? He also said that it was a time when he hoped there was an opportunity for new cooperation between U.N. inspectors and Iraqi officials -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, Nic, have you been given any information about once these offices are set up how the team will go about moving around the country?
ROBERTSON: We know that they're going to refurbish their vehicles that have been parked outside the U.N. building for almost four years. We know that they plan to have the first teams begin their work on the 27th of November. But the real key date for deciding how the inspections should progress forward from there will be the 8th of December, which is when Iraq is, needs to submit its declaration of its weapons of mass destruction procurement and production therewith. So that is, perhaps, when we can expect to see a real ramp up of the inspection process and maybe as many as a hundred inspectors at any one time in the country after that -- Paula.
ZAHN: And, Nic, I know your movements are pretty limited, as well, but can you give us a sense of how the Iraqi public is reacting to the arrival of these inspectors?
ROBERTSON: Well, the Iraqi public in some ways reacting following the, what they've been able to read in newspapers, the editorials saying that the inspectors should be independent, that they should be honest and accusing previous inspection teams of having spies within their ranks.
Most people here, though, want the inspection teams to succeed. They want them to give Iraq a clean bill of health. And the reason people here want that is very simple. Their economy has completely gone down the tubes in the last 10 or 12 years under U.N. sanctions and restrictions around the country, because of the country's weapons of mass destruction, and they want, most Iraqis say, the inspectors is their only chance to shake up those sanctions and get some normality back into their lives and improve their economies and their living standards. And that's really for most people here, that's what they want to see happen.
ZAHN: Nic Robertson, appreciate the update.
Thanks so much.
Now, will the extent of Iraq's arsenal ever be truly known while Saddam Hussein is in power?
Joining us from Washington this morning is the last U.S. officials to meet with the Iraqi president, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who was acting ambassador to Iraq during the Gulf War.
Good to have you on the air with us.
Good morning, sir.
AMBASSADOR JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER CHARGE D'AFFAIRES: Good morning, Paula.
Following James Bond on a Monday morning is daunting, to say the least.
ZAHN: I know. It's been intimidating to every single male that's followed that segment. But you need not feel that way, sir.
Let's talk a little bit about what you think Saddam Hussein's strategy is between now, now that the inspectors have arrived, and December 8.
WILSON: Well, I think Saddam is probably going to be reasonably accommodating to this first group of inspectors that come in. It does him no good whatsoever to further antagonize the international community right now. At the same time, I suspect he'll still be looking for ways that he can drive a wedge between the international consensus that's arrayed against him.
Hopefully, we will continue to maintain a lot of pressure on him, keep the ultimatum to him simple so as to avoid his having much wiggle room, remain firm in our commitment to zero tolerance on his messing around with the inspectors. And then on December 8th, we'll see the extent to which he has satisfied the international demand that he come clean.
ZAHN: What is your sense of what he might do?
WILSON: Well, the question of whether there's going to be military action is now firmly in his court. My guess is that he will attempt to, he will guess as to what we know about what he has and try and satisfy that demand. I don't expect that he will give up everything and there are probably some legitimate reasons, from the Iraqi perspective, not to.
The question is whether he will satisfy, whether he will guess right on what we know. And, of course, he has always been the master of miscalculation on this and other things.
ZAHN: Let's talk about that master of miscalculation, because I know you, having met with him, have some very strong feelings about what guides him. And we're going to put them on the screen now. Something that you stated in a recent article about him where you said, "Saddam is an egomaniacal sociopath. He suffers from malignant narcissism, a sense of self-worth that drives him to act in ways that others would deem irrational, such as invading neighboring countries."
There are people out there who believe he has nothing to lose this time around if he feels that he's going to be attacked and he'll use everything he's got in his arsenal.
Is that your fear?
WILSON: Yes, I'm one of those who believes that if we pursue a regime change strategy in response to any transgression, that there will be no incentive for Saddam not to use every weapon in his arsenal. There will be no incentive for him not to try and drag Israel into a broader war that he can then characterize as an Iraqi defense of the Arab nation against a modern day Judeo-Christian crusade.
It's in our interests, it seems to me, to determine both the timing and the nature of whatever military conflict we contemplate. And that nature should be contingent upon our own strategic interests, which range, frankly, from Indonesia to Mauritania in the Islamic world, and not on this knee jerk idea that getting rid of Saddam is a panacea to all of our problems.
I would reserve the ultimate sanction, which is to say, decapitation of Saddam's regime, for the most egregious transgression, either threat of use or use of weapons of mass destruction or any attempt on his part to drag a neighbor such as Israel into a broader war. Saddam Hussein is 65 years old. The chances are pretty good that if we have to invade and occupy Iraq, we would be there long after the most optimistic projections of his life span would have been exceeded. And Iraq is a hostile country. Our presence there will look likely a lot more like Lebanon and not at all like what some people have suggested. It will not look like Grenada.
ZAHN: We were just showing a series of pictures of you when you last met with Saddam Hussein. Just a closing thought about what surprised you most about your conversations. Obviously, you had been briefed and you studied and you knew everything about this guy you could possibly know, but what -- did he throw you any curve balls?
WILSON: Well, he, in the middle of our conversation when I suggested to him that -- I had three talking points -- get out of Kuwait, quit plundering diplomatic property and threatening our diplomats and allow foreigners to leave the region. He lied to me on what he would do on all three of those, for sure. But during the course of the conversation with him, at one point he blew up, when we were talking about what his actions had done to the international petroleum markets, and gave an impassioned argument as to what the Kuwaitis had done to undermine his regime.
So I must say I was a bit taken aback by his anger at this particular subject, the one time that he actually lost his cool. For the rest he came across as the ruthless thug that we all knew he was.
At the end of the meeting, he put his arm on my shoulder and said that was a good meeting. There were no cameras around at that point. And I can still feel the arm on my shoulder 12 years later.
ZAHN: I'm sure it sent a big chill down your spine.
WILSON: It still does.
ZAHN: Yes, we can well understand why.
Ambassador Joseph Wilson, thank you for your time this morning.
WILSON: My pleasure, Paula.
ZAHN: And I know you made the little James Bond segue at the top of this. James Bond has nothing on you, sir.
WILSON: Why, thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 18, 2002 - 08:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to Iraq. There are about 30 inspectors in the U.N. advance team that landed this morning in Baghdad. The team arrived in the Iraqi capital just a few hours ago. It was greeted by Iraqi military officials.
We're going to get the very latest now from Nic Robertson, who's standing by in Baghdad -- good morning, Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.
Well, first of all, they did what most people do when visiting a new city, which is check into their hotel. But we understand they've already left and gone to the old U.N. offices, where the last inspection teams were set up. We understand they're taking in cleaning equipment there.
Now, you might ask what is new about this team? Well, they have a stronger mandate. They've got more and newer equipment and also we understand they're better trained. And, very significantly, today they landed at the main international airport right very, very close to Baghdad, not 50 miles to the west of the city, where the previous teams were able to land.
But what's the same? Well, the same man was there to greet this U.N. team as greeted many of the other teams. That's the Iraqi interlocutor for the U.N. teams. He is Major General Hosam Amin. He is the head of the Iraqi national monitoring directorate. And he is the man Hans Blix will be talking with, mostly coming up in the next few weeks and months.
Hans Blix was very clear in what he said he'd come to do, he'd come to answer one question and that was had, has Iraq got any weapons of mass destruction? He also said that it was a time when he hoped there was an opportunity for new cooperation between U.N. inspectors and Iraqi officials -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, Nic, have you been given any information about once these offices are set up how the team will go about moving around the country?
ROBERTSON: We know that they're going to refurbish their vehicles that have been parked outside the U.N. building for almost four years. We know that they plan to have the first teams begin their work on the 27th of November. But the real key date for deciding how the inspections should progress forward from there will be the 8th of December, which is when Iraq is, needs to submit its declaration of its weapons of mass destruction procurement and production therewith. So that is, perhaps, when we can expect to see a real ramp up of the inspection process and maybe as many as a hundred inspectors at any one time in the country after that -- Paula.
ZAHN: And, Nic, I know your movements are pretty limited, as well, but can you give us a sense of how the Iraqi public is reacting to the arrival of these inspectors?
ROBERTSON: Well, the Iraqi public in some ways reacting following the, what they've been able to read in newspapers, the editorials saying that the inspectors should be independent, that they should be honest and accusing previous inspection teams of having spies within their ranks.
Most people here, though, want the inspection teams to succeed. They want them to give Iraq a clean bill of health. And the reason people here want that is very simple. Their economy has completely gone down the tubes in the last 10 or 12 years under U.N. sanctions and restrictions around the country, because of the country's weapons of mass destruction, and they want, most Iraqis say, the inspectors is their only chance to shake up those sanctions and get some normality back into their lives and improve their economies and their living standards. And that's really for most people here, that's what they want to see happen.
ZAHN: Nic Robertson, appreciate the update.
Thanks so much.
Now, will the extent of Iraq's arsenal ever be truly known while Saddam Hussein is in power?
Joining us from Washington this morning is the last U.S. officials to meet with the Iraqi president, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who was acting ambassador to Iraq during the Gulf War.
Good to have you on the air with us.
Good morning, sir.
AMBASSADOR JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER CHARGE D'AFFAIRES: Good morning, Paula.
Following James Bond on a Monday morning is daunting, to say the least.
ZAHN: I know. It's been intimidating to every single male that's followed that segment. But you need not feel that way, sir.
Let's talk a little bit about what you think Saddam Hussein's strategy is between now, now that the inspectors have arrived, and December 8.
WILSON: Well, I think Saddam is probably going to be reasonably accommodating to this first group of inspectors that come in. It does him no good whatsoever to further antagonize the international community right now. At the same time, I suspect he'll still be looking for ways that he can drive a wedge between the international consensus that's arrayed against him.
Hopefully, we will continue to maintain a lot of pressure on him, keep the ultimatum to him simple so as to avoid his having much wiggle room, remain firm in our commitment to zero tolerance on his messing around with the inspectors. And then on December 8th, we'll see the extent to which he has satisfied the international demand that he come clean.
ZAHN: What is your sense of what he might do?
WILSON: Well, the question of whether there's going to be military action is now firmly in his court. My guess is that he will attempt to, he will guess as to what we know about what he has and try and satisfy that demand. I don't expect that he will give up everything and there are probably some legitimate reasons, from the Iraqi perspective, not to.
The question is whether he will satisfy, whether he will guess right on what we know. And, of course, he has always been the master of miscalculation on this and other things.
ZAHN: Let's talk about that master of miscalculation, because I know you, having met with him, have some very strong feelings about what guides him. And we're going to put them on the screen now. Something that you stated in a recent article about him where you said, "Saddam is an egomaniacal sociopath. He suffers from malignant narcissism, a sense of self-worth that drives him to act in ways that others would deem irrational, such as invading neighboring countries."
There are people out there who believe he has nothing to lose this time around if he feels that he's going to be attacked and he'll use everything he's got in his arsenal.
Is that your fear?
WILSON: Yes, I'm one of those who believes that if we pursue a regime change strategy in response to any transgression, that there will be no incentive for Saddam not to use every weapon in his arsenal. There will be no incentive for him not to try and drag Israel into a broader war that he can then characterize as an Iraqi defense of the Arab nation against a modern day Judeo-Christian crusade.
It's in our interests, it seems to me, to determine both the timing and the nature of whatever military conflict we contemplate. And that nature should be contingent upon our own strategic interests, which range, frankly, from Indonesia to Mauritania in the Islamic world, and not on this knee jerk idea that getting rid of Saddam is a panacea to all of our problems.
I would reserve the ultimate sanction, which is to say, decapitation of Saddam's regime, for the most egregious transgression, either threat of use or use of weapons of mass destruction or any attempt on his part to drag a neighbor such as Israel into a broader war. Saddam Hussein is 65 years old. The chances are pretty good that if we have to invade and occupy Iraq, we would be there long after the most optimistic projections of his life span would have been exceeded. And Iraq is a hostile country. Our presence there will look likely a lot more like Lebanon and not at all like what some people have suggested. It will not look like Grenada.
ZAHN: We were just showing a series of pictures of you when you last met with Saddam Hussein. Just a closing thought about what surprised you most about your conversations. Obviously, you had been briefed and you studied and you knew everything about this guy you could possibly know, but what -- did he throw you any curve balls?
WILSON: Well, he, in the middle of our conversation when I suggested to him that -- I had three talking points -- get out of Kuwait, quit plundering diplomatic property and threatening our diplomats and allow foreigners to leave the region. He lied to me on what he would do on all three of those, for sure. But during the course of the conversation with him, at one point he blew up, when we were talking about what his actions had done to the international petroleum markets, and gave an impassioned argument as to what the Kuwaitis had done to undermine his regime.
So I must say I was a bit taken aback by his anger at this particular subject, the one time that he actually lost his cool. For the rest he came across as the ruthless thug that we all knew he was.
At the end of the meeting, he put his arm on my shoulder and said that was a good meeting. There were no cameras around at that point. And I can still feel the arm on my shoulder 12 years later.
ZAHN: I'm sure it sent a big chill down your spine.
WILSON: It still does.
ZAHN: Yes, we can well understand why.
Ambassador Joseph Wilson, thank you for your time this morning.
WILSON: My pleasure, Paula.
ZAHN: And I know you made the little James Bond segue at the top of this. James Bond has nothing on you, sir.
WILSON: Why, thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
