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American Morning

Talk with Rod Norland of 'Newsweek'

Aired November 19, 2002 - 08:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to Afghanistan. U.S. troops there are still facing rocket and mortar fire every week as they search for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. And now there is word that some of the attacks might not be the work of holdouts.
"Newsweek" says al Qaeda has new recruits working out of smaller, more mobile bases.

Joining us now from London with more is "Newsweek" correspondent Rod Norland.

Good to see you, Rod.

Your headline says it all, "Back In Business."

Where is al Qaeda training these folks?

ROD NORLAND, "NEWSWEEK": Well, we couldn't find out exactly where these camps were, but it's pretty clear that they're in eastern Afghanistan along the border with Pakistan, in the same area that most people believe Osama bin Laden is probably hiding.

ZAHN: And what are they training them for?

NORLAND: Well, they're training them in all the usual kinds of things -- small arm tactics and weapons use and so on. But there's an increased emphasis compared to their training camps before the U.S. involvement. There's an increased emphasis on suicide tactics, on how to load explosives into belts on their bodies and how to detonate them, how to carry out a suicide attack and so forth.

ZAHN: In your report you also detail they're training them in ambush techniques. What did you learn about that?

NORLAND: In ambush techniques and they, in fact, have been carrying out quite a few of these ambushes, mostly fairly ineffectually so far. The U.S. has managed to prevent them from taking any, from any great loss of life in these incidents. But there's a steady drizzle of them throughout Afghanistan, wherever there are American troops.

ZAHN: Right now we're looking at pictures of some of these recruits training in an obstacle course. And now we want to look at some pictures of al Qaeda fighters training in what look like permanent camps, with a few buildings. Do we know what the new camps look like? NORLAND: Yes. Those pictures probably -- I can't see them, but probably they were pictures taken before the American involvement. And those were quite substantial facilities. Some of them were square, a square mile in extent. But these are much more low key and much smaller. They're hidden in villages and in normal houses. They're very conscious that they're being observed from the air or that we have satellites and aerial reconnaissance and they know how to evade that, and they've done that pretty effectively.

I mean they've done it with, they've managed to hide Osama bin Laden and now they're managing to hide these camps that are training new recruits.

ZAHN: In one of the more astonishing parts of your article, you talk with one of the new recruits. And this was a Kabul businessman who says his jihadi group is behind the September car bombing of a government building that killed some 26 people and injured 150 more. How is it that these groups have become, al Qaeda and the sympathetic groups so darned bold, even with the presence of coalition troops?

NORLAND: That's right, they have, I mean it's their country and they have a lot of support. I think most Afghans are very much pro- American and pro the new government of Karzai. But there are substantial numbers of their followers. And Taliban have never been completely defeated and they basically are mingling with the population and it's possible for them to run these operations.

On the other hand, they haven't managed to run any real big operations. They haven't managed to kill any large numbers of American troops. And they've been most effective, like most terrorists are, against their own people, and civilians at that.

ZAHN: You just made the point that they haven't successfully, you know, killed a bunch of Americans, but in this report you go on to say that U.S. special forces will be posted at 10 new spots in Afghanistan. And I guess the question is given what you've learned about this new recruiting effort, how vulnerable will these soldiers be?

NORLAND: Well, in some ways I think that's a good sign they'll be less vulnerable. One of the problems has been that our forces have been too thin on the ground and too spread out. So it's been possible for groups like this, for al Qaeda to start up camps like this and to operate in some areas with a degree of impunity.

The greater presence the Americans have, the more -- the less likely they'll be able to do that.

ZAHN: You also make the point that in spite of the fact that most of these recruits are local Afghan talent, that the leaders of al Qaeda seem to be pretty under whelmed by them. What do they see as their deficiencies?

NORLAND: Yes, that they're not being, that they're not doing a very good job of taking the fight to the Americans and that they're not showing the kind of suicidal zeal that some of al Qaeda's own Arab followers have shown. But, in fact, in Afghanistan it's never been a feature of their style of fighting to launch suicide attacks. They just have never done that. I mean the one famous case of a suicide attack when they killed Massoud (ph) in the north was carried out by Arab al Qaeda rather than their Afghanistan allies.

So they're disappointed in that and trying to push them to be a little more extreme than they have been.

ZAHN: Well, the article was absolutely fascinating. The headline, again, reading "Back In Business."

NORLAND: Thanks.

ZAHN: Rod Norland, thank you very much for sharing your insights with us this morning.

NORLAND: You're welcome.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 19, 2002 - 08:05   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to Afghanistan. U.S. troops there are still facing rocket and mortar fire every week as they search for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. And now there is word that some of the attacks might not be the work of holdouts.
"Newsweek" says al Qaeda has new recruits working out of smaller, more mobile bases.

Joining us now from London with more is "Newsweek" correspondent Rod Norland.

Good to see you, Rod.

Your headline says it all, "Back In Business."

Where is al Qaeda training these folks?

ROD NORLAND, "NEWSWEEK": Well, we couldn't find out exactly where these camps were, but it's pretty clear that they're in eastern Afghanistan along the border with Pakistan, in the same area that most people believe Osama bin Laden is probably hiding.

ZAHN: And what are they training them for?

NORLAND: Well, they're training them in all the usual kinds of things -- small arm tactics and weapons use and so on. But there's an increased emphasis compared to their training camps before the U.S. involvement. There's an increased emphasis on suicide tactics, on how to load explosives into belts on their bodies and how to detonate them, how to carry out a suicide attack and so forth.

ZAHN: In your report you also detail they're training them in ambush techniques. What did you learn about that?

NORLAND: In ambush techniques and they, in fact, have been carrying out quite a few of these ambushes, mostly fairly ineffectually so far. The U.S. has managed to prevent them from taking any, from any great loss of life in these incidents. But there's a steady drizzle of them throughout Afghanistan, wherever there are American troops.

ZAHN: Right now we're looking at pictures of some of these recruits training in an obstacle course. And now we want to look at some pictures of al Qaeda fighters training in what look like permanent camps, with a few buildings. Do we know what the new camps look like? NORLAND: Yes. Those pictures probably -- I can't see them, but probably they were pictures taken before the American involvement. And those were quite substantial facilities. Some of them were square, a square mile in extent. But these are much more low key and much smaller. They're hidden in villages and in normal houses. They're very conscious that they're being observed from the air or that we have satellites and aerial reconnaissance and they know how to evade that, and they've done that pretty effectively.

I mean they've done it with, they've managed to hide Osama bin Laden and now they're managing to hide these camps that are training new recruits.

ZAHN: In one of the more astonishing parts of your article, you talk with one of the new recruits. And this was a Kabul businessman who says his jihadi group is behind the September car bombing of a government building that killed some 26 people and injured 150 more. How is it that these groups have become, al Qaeda and the sympathetic groups so darned bold, even with the presence of coalition troops?

NORLAND: That's right, they have, I mean it's their country and they have a lot of support. I think most Afghans are very much pro- American and pro the new government of Karzai. But there are substantial numbers of their followers. And Taliban have never been completely defeated and they basically are mingling with the population and it's possible for them to run these operations.

On the other hand, they haven't managed to run any real big operations. They haven't managed to kill any large numbers of American troops. And they've been most effective, like most terrorists are, against their own people, and civilians at that.

ZAHN: You just made the point that they haven't successfully, you know, killed a bunch of Americans, but in this report you go on to say that U.S. special forces will be posted at 10 new spots in Afghanistan. And I guess the question is given what you've learned about this new recruiting effort, how vulnerable will these soldiers be?

NORLAND: Well, in some ways I think that's a good sign they'll be less vulnerable. One of the problems has been that our forces have been too thin on the ground and too spread out. So it's been possible for groups like this, for al Qaeda to start up camps like this and to operate in some areas with a degree of impunity.

The greater presence the Americans have, the more -- the less likely they'll be able to do that.

ZAHN: You also make the point that in spite of the fact that most of these recruits are local Afghan talent, that the leaders of al Qaeda seem to be pretty under whelmed by them. What do they see as their deficiencies?

NORLAND: Yes, that they're not being, that they're not doing a very good job of taking the fight to the Americans and that they're not showing the kind of suicidal zeal that some of al Qaeda's own Arab followers have shown. But, in fact, in Afghanistan it's never been a feature of their style of fighting to launch suicide attacks. They just have never done that. I mean the one famous case of a suicide attack when they killed Massoud (ph) in the north was carried out by Arab al Qaeda rather than their Afghanistan allies.

So they're disappointed in that and trying to push them to be a little more extreme than they have been.

ZAHN: Well, the article was absolutely fascinating. The headline, again, reading "Back In Business."

NORLAND: Thanks.

ZAHN: Rod Norland, thank you very much for sharing your insights with us this morning.

NORLAND: You're welcome.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com