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American Morning

Interview with Stephen Schwartz

Aired December 04, 2002 - 07:17   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Saudi Arabia wants to set the record straight about its role in fighting terrorism. The Saudis claim that they have become the scapegoat right here in the U.S., but not everyone is buying the Saudi government's version.
Stephen Schwartz, author of the book, "The Two Faces of Islam," joins us now. He is in Washington this morning.

Stephen, good morning -- thanks for joining us.

STEPHEN SCHWARTZ, AUTHOR, "THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM": Good morning, Daryn. Thank you.

KAGAN: We're reacting, of course, to the statement that was made yesterday by the Saudi PR representative, and as I understand it, you're not very impressed with what he had to say.

SCHWARTZ: Well, I'm not impressed on several levels. First of all, I hear that Mr. al-Jubeir has lived in the United States 20 years, and if he has, he should get used to the fact that when we have situations in this country like September 11, the media and politicians ask tough questions. And for him to stand up and complain and cry about how much it hurts him to have to listen to these tough questions doesn't impress me.

As far as the actions that were unveiled yesterday in this nine- page, so-called report -- it's not a report really at all, it's just a memo, large-type, lots of white space -- and all it describes is a bunch of financial and accounting details that, in fact, have been more or less in place for months. And it doesn't identify any of the funders of Saudi terror -- of Islamic extremism based in Saudi, except for one individual is mentioned in the report, and al-Jubeir mentioned one in his press conference.

I'm not impressed by it at all. I think they're trying to spin excuses and pretext. They're refusing to give us what we need, which is a full and transparent accounting of Saudi -- the involvement of Saudi subjects on September 11.

KAGAN: Well, on that note...

SCHWARTZ: It's not such a big deal to ask -- sorry.

KAGAN: On that note, Adel al-Jubeir makes the point he believes that this is actually playing right into the hands of Osama bin Laden, that he's trying to drive a wedge between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia.

I want to listen to a little bit of what he had to say yesterday, and then have you comment on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADEL AL-JUBEIR, SAUDI FOR. POLICY ADVISER: He chose Saudis. Why did he do it? In order to give this operation a Saudi face and to create doubt in the minds of Americans about Saudi Arabia and drive a wedge between our two countries. And you know what? I think he almost succeeded. And the irony of it is those who are most critical or hostile towards Saudi Arabia in the United States are playing right into his hands. Bin Laden, if he's dead, is laughing at them from his grave. If he is alive and sitting in a cave, he's doing the same thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And just to backtrack a second here, Stephen. Of course, we're talking about 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11...

SCHWARTZ: Right.

KAGAN: ... were Saudis, and according to Mr. al-Jubeir, it sounds like he picked -- Osama bin Laden picked it this way just to try to drive this wedge between the United States and Saudi Arabia.

SCHWARTZ: Well, it's a little bit of truth and a lot of nonsense here. I mean, this thing about how bin Laden picked 15 out of 19 is nonsense. Al Qaeda is essentially a Saudi-based movement, and the vast majority of al Qaeda participants are Saudis themselves.

So, it was a natural demographic outcome for the attack on the twin towers and on Washington to involve a majority of Saudis. Obviously, yes, Osama bin Laden wants to destroy the protective relationship that the United States has with Saudi Arabia. That's not very important news. This is quite obvious.

To say that those who are warning that there's a serious problem in U.S.-Saudi relations and that Saudis have questions to answer are playing into Osama's hands is just nonsense. This would be like saying that warning against Hitler was playing into Hitler's hands.

Look, there's a problem here. The Saudis refuse to give us the accounting we need. And if the Saudis want to end all of this acrimonious discussion, all they have to do is take some steps to make it clear to us that they're going to give us the accounting we need of September 11 and their subjects' involvement in it.

KAGAN: There are those who believe that they don't necessarily want to do that, and don't have the incentive to do that. So, doesn't the fault, then, lie with the Americans for not pressing the Saudis to give more information?

SCHWARTZ: All I have to say is this: September 11 was the most dramatic event in my lifetime. And if we don't get an accounting of Saudi involvement in it, then there's going to be a hole in the history of our country for a long time. We cannot -- in finding the truth about September 11 -- who was involved, how it was funded, how it was organized -- we can't go on the assumption that the first thing we have to be sure of is our polite relationship with what in fact is the most tyrannical and reactionary regime in the Arab world. I'm sorry. Politeness is not what counts here. What counts here is getting the truth and getting the results we need from the country that has, in fact, been our oldest ally in the Arab world.

KAGAN: And just quickly, a couple of words, as we wrap. Are you hopeful that we'll ever get that?

SCHWARTZ: We have to get it. We have to get it, and they have to give it to us, and there is simply no alternative for the two societies to continue to have any kind of health relationship.

KAGAN: Stephen Schwartz, thanks for your insights this morning.

SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Daryn.

KAGAN: I appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.







Aired December 4, 2002 - 07:17   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Saudi Arabia wants to set the record straight about its role in fighting terrorism. The Saudis claim that they have become the scapegoat right here in the U.S., but not everyone is buying the Saudi government's version.
Stephen Schwartz, author of the book, "The Two Faces of Islam," joins us now. He is in Washington this morning.

Stephen, good morning -- thanks for joining us.

STEPHEN SCHWARTZ, AUTHOR, "THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM": Good morning, Daryn. Thank you.

KAGAN: We're reacting, of course, to the statement that was made yesterday by the Saudi PR representative, and as I understand it, you're not very impressed with what he had to say.

SCHWARTZ: Well, I'm not impressed on several levels. First of all, I hear that Mr. al-Jubeir has lived in the United States 20 years, and if he has, he should get used to the fact that when we have situations in this country like September 11, the media and politicians ask tough questions. And for him to stand up and complain and cry about how much it hurts him to have to listen to these tough questions doesn't impress me.

As far as the actions that were unveiled yesterday in this nine- page, so-called report -- it's not a report really at all, it's just a memo, large-type, lots of white space -- and all it describes is a bunch of financial and accounting details that, in fact, have been more or less in place for months. And it doesn't identify any of the funders of Saudi terror -- of Islamic extremism based in Saudi, except for one individual is mentioned in the report, and al-Jubeir mentioned one in his press conference.

I'm not impressed by it at all. I think they're trying to spin excuses and pretext. They're refusing to give us what we need, which is a full and transparent accounting of Saudi -- the involvement of Saudi subjects on September 11.

KAGAN: Well, on that note...

SCHWARTZ: It's not such a big deal to ask -- sorry.

KAGAN: On that note, Adel al-Jubeir makes the point he believes that this is actually playing right into the hands of Osama bin Laden, that he's trying to drive a wedge between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia.

I want to listen to a little bit of what he had to say yesterday, and then have you comment on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADEL AL-JUBEIR, SAUDI FOR. POLICY ADVISER: He chose Saudis. Why did he do it? In order to give this operation a Saudi face and to create doubt in the minds of Americans about Saudi Arabia and drive a wedge between our two countries. And you know what? I think he almost succeeded. And the irony of it is those who are most critical or hostile towards Saudi Arabia in the United States are playing right into his hands. Bin Laden, if he's dead, is laughing at them from his grave. If he is alive and sitting in a cave, he's doing the same thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And just to backtrack a second here, Stephen. Of course, we're talking about 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11...

SCHWARTZ: Right.

KAGAN: ... were Saudis, and according to Mr. al-Jubeir, it sounds like he picked -- Osama bin Laden picked it this way just to try to drive this wedge between the United States and Saudi Arabia.

SCHWARTZ: Well, it's a little bit of truth and a lot of nonsense here. I mean, this thing about how bin Laden picked 15 out of 19 is nonsense. Al Qaeda is essentially a Saudi-based movement, and the vast majority of al Qaeda participants are Saudis themselves.

So, it was a natural demographic outcome for the attack on the twin towers and on Washington to involve a majority of Saudis. Obviously, yes, Osama bin Laden wants to destroy the protective relationship that the United States has with Saudi Arabia. That's not very important news. This is quite obvious.

To say that those who are warning that there's a serious problem in U.S.-Saudi relations and that Saudis have questions to answer are playing into Osama's hands is just nonsense. This would be like saying that warning against Hitler was playing into Hitler's hands.

Look, there's a problem here. The Saudis refuse to give us the accounting we need. And if the Saudis want to end all of this acrimonious discussion, all they have to do is take some steps to make it clear to us that they're going to give us the accounting we need of September 11 and their subjects' involvement in it.

KAGAN: There are those who believe that they don't necessarily want to do that, and don't have the incentive to do that. So, doesn't the fault, then, lie with the Americans for not pressing the Saudis to give more information?

SCHWARTZ: All I have to say is this: September 11 was the most dramatic event in my lifetime. And if we don't get an accounting of Saudi involvement in it, then there's going to be a hole in the history of our country for a long time. We cannot -- in finding the truth about September 11 -- who was involved, how it was funded, how it was organized -- we can't go on the assumption that the first thing we have to be sure of is our polite relationship with what in fact is the most tyrannical and reactionary regime in the Arab world. I'm sorry. Politeness is not what counts here. What counts here is getting the truth and getting the results we need from the country that has, in fact, been our oldest ally in the Arab world.

KAGAN: And just quickly, a couple of words, as we wrap. Are you hopeful that we'll ever get that?

SCHWARTZ: We have to get it. We have to get it, and they have to give it to us, and there is simply no alternative for the two societies to continue to have any kind of health relationship.

KAGAN: Stephen Schwartz, thanks for your insights this morning.

SCHWARTZ: Thank you, Daryn.

KAGAN: I appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.