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American Morning

Interview with Joseph Wilson

Aired December 05, 2002 - 08:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Once again Iraq is saying it's ready to provide a full accounting of its weapons programs a day ahead of the U.N. deadline. They say they'll turn it in on Saturday. The deadline was set for Sunday.
Deputy Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz, though, yesterday says he believes the U.S. is bound and determined to get what it wants, and what it wants, he believes, is war with Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TARIQ AZIZ, IRAQI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: The whole issue of weapons of mass destruction is a hoax. It has been used as a pretext in order to wage a war against Iraq. When they find that there are no weapons of mass destruction, they will use another pretext to attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: So then is it rhetoric? Is it reality? What do we believe at this point?

Ambassador Joseph Wilson, the last American diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein face to face when he was charge d'affairs there in Baghdad.

Ambassador Wilson is back with us in Washington.

Good morning to you.

Nice to see you.

AMBASSADOR JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER CHARGE D'AFFAIRS: Hi, Bill. How are you this morning?

HEMMER: I'm doing just fine.

There was a very interesting piece in the "USA Today" this morning. If you get to the very bottom of the article, it sort of paints the White House in a situation that it wants to get in a no win situation regarding Iraq. If you report your weapons of mass destruction, you're in violation. If you don't report it and the U.S. inspectors find it, you're in violation.

Do you see it that way right now, trying to box Saddam Hussein in?

WILSON: Oh, I think that's right. But the question really is whether or not we actually go to war, invade Iraq, conquer Iraq for the purposes of totally disarming him, or whether we can do it without having to take that rather drastic step.

HEMMER: What do you believe on this front, then? The U.S. says it's not happy with the inspectors. Iraq is now expressing some displeasure in certain corners. The U.N. is saying hey, so far so good, let's keep it going. If you look at these three and size them up, where does the argument take us?

WILSON: Well, I think it's still early in the game. I think that on the one hand, the United States wants to keep the pressure on Iraq, and that's perfectly normal and appropriate. On the other hand, the Iraqis want to, one, try and get out from under this cloud they're under by splitting the opposition that's arrayed against it. And, two, prepare their own population and the Arab world in the event that there is a military action so that they can portray the United States as the aggressor.

HEMMER: What do you make of the military movements? Thirty minutes ago we saw Bob Franken get ready for this giant aircraft carrier to head out from Norfolk. We have John Vause in Qatar getting ready for this public military exercise that the U.S. will conduct beginning on Monday of next week. Is that signal sent to Baghdad and what's the interpretation of that?

WILSON: Oh, I think all these are signals sent to Baghdad. I think Paul Wolfowitz's trip to the region, the shipment of troops into Qatar, the sailing of the ships, all that's designed to send Saddam a message that, as the president said, you will either disarm peacefully or we will disarm you forcibly.

HEMMER: I guess that based on your experience in Iraq, how do the Iraqis interpret that, then?

WILSON: Well, the way they'd better interpret it is that it is a credible threat of force, that the administration is not playing games and that they'd better get on with the program of disarming.

HEMMER: You mentioned Paul Wolfowitz. You believe it's quite critical and quite important to examine his trip to Turkey. Tell us why.

WILSON: Well, it's curious, everybody has been talking about this coalition of the willing and Wolfowitz goes out to Turkey and it's sounding more and more like it's a coalition of the coerced, the co-opted and the corrupted. The Turkish press is reporting today, or yesterday, that the Turkish bill for participating in this is going to be $25 billion, which they want to pass directly from the administration to Turkey without even passing through the U.S. Congress. That's a large sum of money and it hardly suggests that Turkey sees the Iraq threat in the same way that we do.

HEMMER: You know, we've talked all week, but what we haven't talked about with you is the documents we expect to be handed in on Saturday. We're about 48 hours from that expected turn in, that expected list. What's going to be contained on there, in your estimation?

WILSON: Well, I've said repeatedly that I suspect that what the Iraqis will do is give up what they suspect we know about their programs. That's completely different from whatever they think they can get away with hiding.

HEMMER: So is that guesswork, then, on their part, then?

WILSON: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

HEMMER: Is that guesswork on their part, then, if they are going to report what they think the U.S. and others know?

WILSON: A good part of it is going to be guesswork, clearly. They're going to take and make an assessment of, based on past inspections, based on what they've heard us say in the past and then a certain amount of guesswork. And that's where the opportunity for gross miscalculation comes into play.

HEMMER: A big meeting at the White House today to try and garner some sort of reaction depending on what is given over and what is handed over this weekend. Ten seconds or less, what comes out of it today? What's the White House strategy?

WILSON: Well, I think the White House is going to wait and see what they hand over. Then there'll be this period where we match up what they say they have and what we think we know we have based on our own intelligence information. And then the next step will be to go and match up these discrepancies, verify the discrepancies.

HEMMER: It's going to be an interesting December, don't you think?

WILSON: Well, absolutely. Absolutely.

HEMMER: All right, Ambassador, thanks.

Joseph Wilson down in D.C.

We'll talk again.

Thanks for coming back.

WILSON: All right, listen, I'm sorry that Paula broke her leg. I just heard about it.

HEMMER: Yes...

WILSON: Give her my best wishes.

HEMMER: Tough accident last week out West, and we do the same, as well. We saw her X-ray yesterday, and can I tell you, it looked painful.

WILSON: Well, in exchange for an autographed copy of the X-ray, I'm happy to show her some of the tricks of how to get around on crutches, having spent a fair amount of my misspent youth on them myself.

HEMMER: Oh, nice. Well, listen, we may incorporate your knowledge, OK?

WILSON: All right.

HEMMER: Thanks, Ambassador.

Talk to you later.

WILSON: Bye-bye now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 5, 2002 - 08:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Once again Iraq is saying it's ready to provide a full accounting of its weapons programs a day ahead of the U.N. deadline. They say they'll turn it in on Saturday. The deadline was set for Sunday.
Deputy Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz, though, yesterday says he believes the U.S. is bound and determined to get what it wants, and what it wants, he believes, is war with Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TARIQ AZIZ, IRAQI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: The whole issue of weapons of mass destruction is a hoax. It has been used as a pretext in order to wage a war against Iraq. When they find that there are no weapons of mass destruction, they will use another pretext to attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: So then is it rhetoric? Is it reality? What do we believe at this point?

Ambassador Joseph Wilson, the last American diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein face to face when he was charge d'affairs there in Baghdad.

Ambassador Wilson is back with us in Washington.

Good morning to you.

Nice to see you.

AMBASSADOR JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER CHARGE D'AFFAIRS: Hi, Bill. How are you this morning?

HEMMER: I'm doing just fine.

There was a very interesting piece in the "USA Today" this morning. If you get to the very bottom of the article, it sort of paints the White House in a situation that it wants to get in a no win situation regarding Iraq. If you report your weapons of mass destruction, you're in violation. If you don't report it and the U.S. inspectors find it, you're in violation.

Do you see it that way right now, trying to box Saddam Hussein in?

WILSON: Oh, I think that's right. But the question really is whether or not we actually go to war, invade Iraq, conquer Iraq for the purposes of totally disarming him, or whether we can do it without having to take that rather drastic step.

HEMMER: What do you believe on this front, then? The U.S. says it's not happy with the inspectors. Iraq is now expressing some displeasure in certain corners. The U.N. is saying hey, so far so good, let's keep it going. If you look at these three and size them up, where does the argument take us?

WILSON: Well, I think it's still early in the game. I think that on the one hand, the United States wants to keep the pressure on Iraq, and that's perfectly normal and appropriate. On the other hand, the Iraqis want to, one, try and get out from under this cloud they're under by splitting the opposition that's arrayed against it. And, two, prepare their own population and the Arab world in the event that there is a military action so that they can portray the United States as the aggressor.

HEMMER: What do you make of the military movements? Thirty minutes ago we saw Bob Franken get ready for this giant aircraft carrier to head out from Norfolk. We have John Vause in Qatar getting ready for this public military exercise that the U.S. will conduct beginning on Monday of next week. Is that signal sent to Baghdad and what's the interpretation of that?

WILSON: Oh, I think all these are signals sent to Baghdad. I think Paul Wolfowitz's trip to the region, the shipment of troops into Qatar, the sailing of the ships, all that's designed to send Saddam a message that, as the president said, you will either disarm peacefully or we will disarm you forcibly.

HEMMER: I guess that based on your experience in Iraq, how do the Iraqis interpret that, then?

WILSON: Well, the way they'd better interpret it is that it is a credible threat of force, that the administration is not playing games and that they'd better get on with the program of disarming.

HEMMER: You mentioned Paul Wolfowitz. You believe it's quite critical and quite important to examine his trip to Turkey. Tell us why.

WILSON: Well, it's curious, everybody has been talking about this coalition of the willing and Wolfowitz goes out to Turkey and it's sounding more and more like it's a coalition of the coerced, the co-opted and the corrupted. The Turkish press is reporting today, or yesterday, that the Turkish bill for participating in this is going to be $25 billion, which they want to pass directly from the administration to Turkey without even passing through the U.S. Congress. That's a large sum of money and it hardly suggests that Turkey sees the Iraq threat in the same way that we do.

HEMMER: You know, we've talked all week, but what we haven't talked about with you is the documents we expect to be handed in on Saturday. We're about 48 hours from that expected turn in, that expected list. What's going to be contained on there, in your estimation?

WILSON: Well, I've said repeatedly that I suspect that what the Iraqis will do is give up what they suspect we know about their programs. That's completely different from whatever they think they can get away with hiding.

HEMMER: So is that guesswork, then, on their part, then?

WILSON: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

HEMMER: Is that guesswork on their part, then, if they are going to report what they think the U.S. and others know?

WILSON: A good part of it is going to be guesswork, clearly. They're going to take and make an assessment of, based on past inspections, based on what they've heard us say in the past and then a certain amount of guesswork. And that's where the opportunity for gross miscalculation comes into play.

HEMMER: A big meeting at the White House today to try and garner some sort of reaction depending on what is given over and what is handed over this weekend. Ten seconds or less, what comes out of it today? What's the White House strategy?

WILSON: Well, I think the White House is going to wait and see what they hand over. Then there'll be this period where we match up what they say they have and what we think we know we have based on our own intelligence information. And then the next step will be to go and match up these discrepancies, verify the discrepancies.

HEMMER: It's going to be an interesting December, don't you think?

WILSON: Well, absolutely. Absolutely.

HEMMER: All right, Ambassador, thanks.

Joseph Wilson down in D.C.

We'll talk again.

Thanks for coming back.

WILSON: All right, listen, I'm sorry that Paula broke her leg. I just heard about it.

HEMMER: Yes...

WILSON: Give her my best wishes.

HEMMER: Tough accident last week out West, and we do the same, as well. We saw her X-ray yesterday, and can I tell you, it looked painful.

WILSON: Well, in exchange for an autographed copy of the X-ray, I'm happy to show her some of the tricks of how to get around on crutches, having spent a fair amount of my misspent youth on them myself.

HEMMER: Oh, nice. Well, listen, we may incorporate your knowledge, OK?

WILSON: All right.

HEMMER: Thanks, Ambassador.

Talk to you later.

WILSON: Bye-bye now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com