Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Lott's Leadership Position Soon to be Put to Test
Aired December 16, 2002 - 08:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the issue of Senator Lott, his leadership position soon to be put to a test. Senator Chuck Hagel is one of three top Republicans calling for a party conference on the controversy surrounding Lott. Senator Hagel is also just back from the Middle East and has some criticism of the president's threat to use nuclear force in response to a bioterrorism attack.
Republican Chuck Hagel joins us this morning from Washington.
Welcome back, Senator.
Good to see you again.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NB), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Thank you.
Good morning.
ZAHN: I want to start off by touching on this widening controversy over Trent Lott. And you were quoted a little bit earlier this week as saying, "This thing is growing like poison ivy around everyone's ankles."
Do you want to elaborate on that?
HAGEL: Well, first, we have to acknowledge the fact that this is a major issue. It's not going to go away. It cannot be deferred. Therefore, I think that the Republican Senate Conference should get together as soon as we can and either renew our confidence in Trent Lott's leadership or find a new leader.
This country has immense challenges before it today. It is not fair to our party, to the president's agenda or to the nation to go into a new Congress that will begin January 7 fractured. The world cannot see this. We have too many big issues that are out there and these great challenges are going to be dealt with, must be dealt with, not just with our president but with our Congress.
The American people have to have confidence in their congressional leadership. So I think the best way to move this forward and deal with it up, honest, open is a conference.
ZAHN: And, Senator, based on what you're hearing from your Senate colleagues, are you inclined to think your body of leadership will hang in there with Senator Trent Lott, or is it all over for him as far as the leadership position is concerned?
HAGEL: Paula, I'm not going to speculate on that. That's the point of a conference. It would bring together all 51 Republican senators, let us internally work this through, make a decision, and, as I said, either recommit to Senator Lott's leadership or find a new leader. That's critically important for our party and for us to move on into the new year to deal with the challenges ahead.
ZAHN: Do you want him to stay?
HAGEL: Oh, I'm not going to speculate on that. That's why we're going to have the conference. I think we will have a conference.
ZAHN: But don't you know how you feel at this point?
HAGEL: I want to listen to Senator Lott, I want to listen to the other senators and within the body of 51 Republican United States senators we'll make a decision. And we need to make that decision quickly.
ZAHN: One more political question before we move on to your very important trip of last week, and that is the issue of Al Gore saying he will not run in 2004. Of all the Democratic folks positioned to run, who do you think this benefits the most? Who would give President Bush the toughest challenge?
HAGEL: Well, I think at this point it's wide open. It's hard to predict, Paula. Let's not forget, in 1990, two years before the 1992 presidential election, we had an incumbent president, the president's father, with stratospheric poll numbers. And there were very few Democratic contenders thinking positively about being able to beat him.
The world is so fluid and dynamic, we have so many challenges out there, the president is going to have to deal with so much. Who might be the best to put up against President Bush in two years, no one can predict now. But now it's wide open and I think that's good for the Democratic Party.
ZAHN: On to the issue of your response to the president's defense strategy that was presented last week. You had this to say about the U.S. potentially responding to a chemical or biological attack. "It is very dangerous to be talking too much about these kinds of responses that the United States would take or actions in anticipation of another nation's actions."
Of course, you heard what the administration had to say about this, that this is supposed to provide a deterrent to such an action.
You don't see it that way?
HAGEL: Well, first of all, any sovereign nation always has the right of self-defense and any sovereign nation will use the weapons within its arsenal to respond to an anticipated attack or an attack. That's not new.
But at a time when the world is so volatile, there is so much swirling around here, I don't think it's wise to be talking now about a renewed focus on using nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction in anticipation of an attack. That's always been there.
I think what we should do now is be very careful and steady and wise, ratchet down the rhetoric. Let's stay cool here. This is not going to enhance stability in the world when we talk like this. Let's work with our allies. Let's work within the framework of the United Nations, what we are doing in Iraq. That's the way we work our way through this.
But to continue to keep everybody off balance is not smart.
Another thing about this is if we, the United States, have been the leaders on the non-proliferation scene for the last 50 years, when we talk more about using weapons of mass destruction in a preemptive way, in anticipation of another nation's action, we erode the confidence in our leadership. We erode our credibility as being a leader in non-proliferation. And we frighten people. We play into the hands of those who want to keep the world off balance and anti- American.
ZAHN: A final question for you about your trip last week to northern Iraq and the Middle East. What is it that you learned that would be of any help to the Bush administration right now as we're in this wait and see period with Saddam Hussein?
HAGEL: Senator Biden and I will brief White House, administration officials this week, as well as Secretary Powell, and we look forward to that. But one of the things that was reconfirmed, Paula, in our week long trip to seven nations, including northern Iraq, was how complicated things are in the Middle East. This is a flashpoint that could go many different ways at any time. We have to be careful here and work within the structure of our allies. We met with all the leaders over there in the day and a half we were in northern Iraq, meeting with the Kurdish leaders and others.
It just points up once again how we have to be careful here and work within the coalitions of common interests.
ZAHN: Senator Chuck Hagel, love for you to come back when you're comfortable telling us how you really feel about Trent Lott. Will you do that for us?
HAGEL: I will. I always like to come back to see you, Paula.
ZAHN: All right, thank you.
HAGEL: Thank you.
ZAHN: But the next time you've got to tell us how you really think about Trent Lott.
HAGEL: OK.
ZAHN: But I know you want to meet with your Senate colleagues and then you'll share that with us.
HAGEL: Thank you. ZAHN: Take care.
Have a good holiday if we don't see you before then.
HAGEL: Thank you.
ZAHN: Back to Bill Schneider now, who is our senior political analyst, who is on the road. He is in Boston today. Bill, welcome back.
You heard Senate...
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... Senator Hagel talk a little bit about Majority Leader Trent Lott. And very cautious to say that he wants to meet with his Senate colleagues before any kind of pronouncements are made.
What are you hearing from the various phone calls you've made?
SCHNEIDER: What I'm hearing is they don't know which way this is going. They're nervous. They're apprehensive. And I think Senator Hagel was speaking the way a lot of senators are speaking, where is this story going to go? They don't know. But a lot will be determined by the Lott interview, which is going to be taped today, shown tonight on Black Entertainment Television, where he'll respond for about a half an hour to questions, mostly, I assume, from African- American journalists and commentators, about his record on racial issues and on civil rights.
You know, he apologized for what he said at the Strom Thurmond birthday lunch, but there's a lot more that he needs to explain, like his opposition to a Martin Luther King holiday, his support for Bob Jones University, which had racially discriminatory policies, his vote to, not to extend the Voting Rights Act, his activities when he was in a fraternity in college against integration.
There are lots and lots of things that need explaining.
So I think the senators are saying wait a minute, we want to wait and see how this is going.
ZAHN: And Black Entertainment Television has made it very clear, this is not going to be a cake walk. This is going to be a...
SCHNEIDER: No, that's right.
ZAHN: ... tough format. So what is the risk of this format for Trent Lott?
SCHNEIDER: Well, I think it's...
ZAHN: I mean the record is the record, right?
SCHNEIDER: Yes. I mean he has to explain his record and they say, and, that this is going to be open, it's going to be tough, it's going to be free wheeling and he'll be called on to explain his record. It's a little less risky, say, than appearing before the NAACP or the Urban League or some major civil rights group where he could be booed. This is a television interview. So the audience, I am certain, will be respectful and polite.
But they're also going to be tough and they're going to hold his feet to the fire and say why did you do these things? Why did you twice now, just this month and 12 years ago, 22 years ago, rather, twice say that the country would have been better off if Strom Thurmond had been elected president in 1948?
And what about his meetings with the Council of Conservative Citizens, a group in the South that has ties to white racist groups? And his support for citizenship for Jefferson Davis? There's just a long list of things that require explaining.
ZAHN: Bill, we've got about 10 seconds left. Given that the White House is going to make a full court press for the black vote in 2004, was it a mistake on the Bush administration's part not to say from the get go we want Trent Lott out? I know they say it's not up to them, it's up to the Senate to decide. But should they have gone further?
SCHNEIDER: Oh, I don't think so. Paula, look, the president made his views perfectly clear. That's why this issue exists. I mean before Bush spoke on Thursday in Philadelphia, which was a harsh rebuke of Senator Lott, a lot of Republicans said this is just silliness, it'll go away, we can dismiss it. But the instant the president spoke up he ratcheted up the seriousness of this controversy and now Republicans are taking it very seriously.
The president's views, I think, are perfectly clear. This is not the face he wants the Republican Party to present. He did not go so far as to say get rid of him, but, you know, that's up to the Republicans in the Senate.
ZAHN: All right, Bill Schneider, thanks.
Travel safely.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
ZAHN: He's in Beantown...
SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... where I think there's supposed to be some flurries a little bit later on today.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 16, 2002 - 08:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the issue of Senator Lott, his leadership position soon to be put to a test. Senator Chuck Hagel is one of three top Republicans calling for a party conference on the controversy surrounding Lott. Senator Hagel is also just back from the Middle East and has some criticism of the president's threat to use nuclear force in response to a bioterrorism attack.
Republican Chuck Hagel joins us this morning from Washington.
Welcome back, Senator.
Good to see you again.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NB), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Thank you.
Good morning.
ZAHN: I want to start off by touching on this widening controversy over Trent Lott. And you were quoted a little bit earlier this week as saying, "This thing is growing like poison ivy around everyone's ankles."
Do you want to elaborate on that?
HAGEL: Well, first, we have to acknowledge the fact that this is a major issue. It's not going to go away. It cannot be deferred. Therefore, I think that the Republican Senate Conference should get together as soon as we can and either renew our confidence in Trent Lott's leadership or find a new leader.
This country has immense challenges before it today. It is not fair to our party, to the president's agenda or to the nation to go into a new Congress that will begin January 7 fractured. The world cannot see this. We have too many big issues that are out there and these great challenges are going to be dealt with, must be dealt with, not just with our president but with our Congress.
The American people have to have confidence in their congressional leadership. So I think the best way to move this forward and deal with it up, honest, open is a conference.
ZAHN: And, Senator, based on what you're hearing from your Senate colleagues, are you inclined to think your body of leadership will hang in there with Senator Trent Lott, or is it all over for him as far as the leadership position is concerned?
HAGEL: Paula, I'm not going to speculate on that. That's the point of a conference. It would bring together all 51 Republican senators, let us internally work this through, make a decision, and, as I said, either recommit to Senator Lott's leadership or find a new leader. That's critically important for our party and for us to move on into the new year to deal with the challenges ahead.
ZAHN: Do you want him to stay?
HAGEL: Oh, I'm not going to speculate on that. That's why we're going to have the conference. I think we will have a conference.
ZAHN: But don't you know how you feel at this point?
HAGEL: I want to listen to Senator Lott, I want to listen to the other senators and within the body of 51 Republican United States senators we'll make a decision. And we need to make that decision quickly.
ZAHN: One more political question before we move on to your very important trip of last week, and that is the issue of Al Gore saying he will not run in 2004. Of all the Democratic folks positioned to run, who do you think this benefits the most? Who would give President Bush the toughest challenge?
HAGEL: Well, I think at this point it's wide open. It's hard to predict, Paula. Let's not forget, in 1990, two years before the 1992 presidential election, we had an incumbent president, the president's father, with stratospheric poll numbers. And there were very few Democratic contenders thinking positively about being able to beat him.
The world is so fluid and dynamic, we have so many challenges out there, the president is going to have to deal with so much. Who might be the best to put up against President Bush in two years, no one can predict now. But now it's wide open and I think that's good for the Democratic Party.
ZAHN: On to the issue of your response to the president's defense strategy that was presented last week. You had this to say about the U.S. potentially responding to a chemical or biological attack. "It is very dangerous to be talking too much about these kinds of responses that the United States would take or actions in anticipation of another nation's actions."
Of course, you heard what the administration had to say about this, that this is supposed to provide a deterrent to such an action.
You don't see it that way?
HAGEL: Well, first of all, any sovereign nation always has the right of self-defense and any sovereign nation will use the weapons within its arsenal to respond to an anticipated attack or an attack. That's not new.
But at a time when the world is so volatile, there is so much swirling around here, I don't think it's wise to be talking now about a renewed focus on using nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction in anticipation of an attack. That's always been there.
I think what we should do now is be very careful and steady and wise, ratchet down the rhetoric. Let's stay cool here. This is not going to enhance stability in the world when we talk like this. Let's work with our allies. Let's work within the framework of the United Nations, what we are doing in Iraq. That's the way we work our way through this.
But to continue to keep everybody off balance is not smart.
Another thing about this is if we, the United States, have been the leaders on the non-proliferation scene for the last 50 years, when we talk more about using weapons of mass destruction in a preemptive way, in anticipation of another nation's action, we erode the confidence in our leadership. We erode our credibility as being a leader in non-proliferation. And we frighten people. We play into the hands of those who want to keep the world off balance and anti- American.
ZAHN: A final question for you about your trip last week to northern Iraq and the Middle East. What is it that you learned that would be of any help to the Bush administration right now as we're in this wait and see period with Saddam Hussein?
HAGEL: Senator Biden and I will brief White House, administration officials this week, as well as Secretary Powell, and we look forward to that. But one of the things that was reconfirmed, Paula, in our week long trip to seven nations, including northern Iraq, was how complicated things are in the Middle East. This is a flashpoint that could go many different ways at any time. We have to be careful here and work within the structure of our allies. We met with all the leaders over there in the day and a half we were in northern Iraq, meeting with the Kurdish leaders and others.
It just points up once again how we have to be careful here and work within the coalitions of common interests.
ZAHN: Senator Chuck Hagel, love for you to come back when you're comfortable telling us how you really feel about Trent Lott. Will you do that for us?
HAGEL: I will. I always like to come back to see you, Paula.
ZAHN: All right, thank you.
HAGEL: Thank you.
ZAHN: But the next time you've got to tell us how you really think about Trent Lott.
HAGEL: OK.
ZAHN: But I know you want to meet with your Senate colleagues and then you'll share that with us.
HAGEL: Thank you. ZAHN: Take care.
Have a good holiday if we don't see you before then.
HAGEL: Thank you.
ZAHN: Back to Bill Schneider now, who is our senior political analyst, who is on the road. He is in Boston today. Bill, welcome back.
You heard Senate...
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... Senator Hagel talk a little bit about Majority Leader Trent Lott. And very cautious to say that he wants to meet with his Senate colleagues before any kind of pronouncements are made.
What are you hearing from the various phone calls you've made?
SCHNEIDER: What I'm hearing is they don't know which way this is going. They're nervous. They're apprehensive. And I think Senator Hagel was speaking the way a lot of senators are speaking, where is this story going to go? They don't know. But a lot will be determined by the Lott interview, which is going to be taped today, shown tonight on Black Entertainment Television, where he'll respond for about a half an hour to questions, mostly, I assume, from African- American journalists and commentators, about his record on racial issues and on civil rights.
You know, he apologized for what he said at the Strom Thurmond birthday lunch, but there's a lot more that he needs to explain, like his opposition to a Martin Luther King holiday, his support for Bob Jones University, which had racially discriminatory policies, his vote to, not to extend the Voting Rights Act, his activities when he was in a fraternity in college against integration.
There are lots and lots of things that need explaining.
So I think the senators are saying wait a minute, we want to wait and see how this is going.
ZAHN: And Black Entertainment Television has made it very clear, this is not going to be a cake walk. This is going to be a...
SCHNEIDER: No, that's right.
ZAHN: ... tough format. So what is the risk of this format for Trent Lott?
SCHNEIDER: Well, I think it's...
ZAHN: I mean the record is the record, right?
SCHNEIDER: Yes. I mean he has to explain his record and they say, and, that this is going to be open, it's going to be tough, it's going to be free wheeling and he'll be called on to explain his record. It's a little less risky, say, than appearing before the NAACP or the Urban League or some major civil rights group where he could be booed. This is a television interview. So the audience, I am certain, will be respectful and polite.
But they're also going to be tough and they're going to hold his feet to the fire and say why did you do these things? Why did you twice now, just this month and 12 years ago, 22 years ago, rather, twice say that the country would have been better off if Strom Thurmond had been elected president in 1948?
And what about his meetings with the Council of Conservative Citizens, a group in the South that has ties to white racist groups? And his support for citizenship for Jefferson Davis? There's just a long list of things that require explaining.
ZAHN: Bill, we've got about 10 seconds left. Given that the White House is going to make a full court press for the black vote in 2004, was it a mistake on the Bush administration's part not to say from the get go we want Trent Lott out? I know they say it's not up to them, it's up to the Senate to decide. But should they have gone further?
SCHNEIDER: Oh, I don't think so. Paula, look, the president made his views perfectly clear. That's why this issue exists. I mean before Bush spoke on Thursday in Philadelphia, which was a harsh rebuke of Senator Lott, a lot of Republicans said this is just silliness, it'll go away, we can dismiss it. But the instant the president spoke up he ratcheted up the seriousness of this controversy and now Republicans are taking it very seriously.
The president's views, I think, are perfectly clear. This is not the face he wants the Republican Party to present. He did not go so far as to say get rid of him, but, you know, that's up to the Republicans in the Senate.
ZAHN: All right, Bill Schneider, thanks.
Travel safely.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
ZAHN: He's in Beantown...
SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
ZAHN: ... where I think there's supposed to be some flurries a little bit later on today.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
