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American Morning
Iraq's Declaration and Possibility of War
Aired December 20, 2002 - 08:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Not a trigger, but a turning point. That's how the Bush administration is treating what it calls Iraq's failure to come clean about its weapons of mass destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraq's response is a catalog of recycled information and flagrant omissions. It should be obvious that the pattern of systematic holes and gaps in Iraq's declaration is not the result of accidents or editing oversights or technical mistakes. These are material omissions that in our view constitute another material breach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And Secretary Powell says Iraq is quickly running out of chances to avoid war.
Joining us now to talk about Iraq's declaration and the possibility of war, from Washington, Indiana Senator Richard Lugar, the incoming chairman.
Good to see you again, sir.
Welcome.
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R-IA), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: I just wanted to let you know we should be joined by Senator Joe Biden in a moment or two, but we're going to start our conversation now.
How many chances does Iraq have left to avoid war?
LUGAR: Well, things have moved on a predictable course, unpredictable because of the difference between the zero Security Council vote which set up the inspections. But since that point the Iraqis, as Secretary Powell has pointed out, simply have recycled old material into 12,000 pages, omitting substantial elements that are obvious.
Our objective now, that is, the United States' objective is to get Hans Blix to get scientists, workers, others who really know what is going on out of the country, get their families out so that they can testify freely and at least give the world some idea what is going on there. Without that, the inspectors are likely to wander through there for the next few weeks and find nothing more and then we will come to January 27, a fateful date because that's the date that Hans Blix has to make a substantial report and the date at least which many believe will be the decision-making date for activity, either war or consequences if Iraq does not comply.
ZAHN: Are you confident that inspectors will get to these Iraqi scientists? Because we just interviewed the spokesperson for the IAEA and he said the biggest problem they're going to encounter is having a system in place where you can provide sanctuary for these Iraqi scientists to leave a country.
What kind of support do you think the inspectors will get on this front?
LUGAR: Well, there clearly are great complications when you attempt to get the scientists and their families, under great pressure, out of a country. And I don't deny technical problems. But we're talking about war and peace here. We're talking about weapons of mass destruction, whether the world's going to find them, Saddam is going to destroy them or we're going to destroy them. That is very critical, much more beyond the logistics of the scientists coming out with their families.
ZAHN: How troubled are you that the Russians don't seem to be on the same page at this moment? Senator Powell outlined what he thought were key omissions yesterday and yet this is what the Russian ambassador to the U.N. had to say after the briefing on the declaration.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGEI LAVROV, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: We repeatedly said that we have been hearing allegations that Iraq does continue its WMD programs. We have heard it many times. We never saw any evidence that this is the case. We don't know whether this is true or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: What kind of a challenge does that pose for the U.S. at this point?
LUGAR: Well, no particular challenge the Russians are taking the conventional viewpoint of many Europeans that there will really have to be a smoking gun and all sorts of things laid out for the Security Council before their populaces and others will believe it. In fact, the Russians know better. It so happens that I'm going to be visiting with the Russian foreign minister for breakfast in about a half an hour and we're going to discuss this because they have a very good idea of what's going on.
At some point, why, we will have to have another fateful meeting of the Security Council, in my judgment. The Security Council must take action or it is irrelevant. The consequences are coming due. Now, Saddam in the meanwhile may decide to at least show some things as opposed to abject total denial, which has been the course thus far.
ZAHN: Senator Lugar, we're going to bring Senator Biden into this discussion, but just, if we've got 10 seconds left for Senator Lugar, do you think Senator Lott will be majority leader come next year?
LUGAR: I don't know.
ZAHN: Or will it be Bill Frist?
LUGAR: It's not been a very good week for each one of us working with our colleagues and at this point I'm simply visiting with a good number of members.
ZAHN: And have you decided to stand by Trent Lott or have you made that decision yet?
LUGAR: I've made no decision.
ZAHN: All right, Senator Lugar, thank you for that.
LUGAR: Thank you.
ZAHN: Let's turn to Senator Joe Biden.
Welcome to you, as well, Senator.
I don't know how much of our conversation you heard with Senator Lugar, but I want to sort of change the subject to something you pose in a "Washington Post" editorial today, and that is the issue of what comes after the war, if there is one. And you write, "The most challenging phase will likely be the day after or, more accurately, the decade after Saddam Hussein."
You go on to say that, "Americans, for the most part, are not prepared for what will likely be a huge undertaking."
What do you mean?
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DW), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, I mean probably tens of thousands of American forces in place in Iraq for at least two years, maybe five or more; a cost of up to $20 billion a year in maintaining those forces who will be securing the borders and keeping reprisal killings from happening. You know, it's a very complicated -- I know you know it, I watch you all the time, Paula. You know how complicated it is between the Indo-European Kurds and the Sunni Arabs and the Shia Arabs. You saw what happened in London, how difficult it is to get these groups together.
And every single solitarily leader I met with in the Middle East, including when I was up in northern Iraq in the Kurdish territory, the expectations of the United States being able to hold the country together are so high that it is, it may be a bar that is too high. And the American people should be aware that if we go down, if Saddam continues down the track and we use force, which it looks like more and more is likely to happen, with the support of the international community, that we're in there for a long time and it's going to be a very complicated, very, very complicated situation.
ZAHN: Finally, sir, are you suggesting that the Bush administration is perhaps misleading the American public...
BIDEN: No, I'm...
ZAHN: ... or just that they're not educating the American public to what the demands will be down the road?
BIDEN: They're, I think they're taking this a step at a time. The president committed two months ago to me in front of a large group of six or eight other House and Senate members in the Cabinet Room, that if, in fact, we did use force, he would, before we did, go on the air and tell the American people what was expected of them.
Paula, I'm older than you, but you may remember that Vietnam era, that no foreign policy can be sustained without the informed consent of the American people. And I think we have to inform them that the first part, of taking down Saddam, as dangerous as that is, may be the easiest part in terms of being able to effectively do it. Putting Humpty Dumpty back together again, a country that's never been a coherent country, never been a united entity and making it some sort of democracy, as the president suggests, is going to be a Herculean task.
We'll have to undertake it. I support undertaking it. But the American people should be aware so they're not caught unawares of how much money and how much time we're talking about. This is going to be called nation building, a phrase the administration doesn't like. But we're going to have to put together a nation.
ZAHN: And for folks more interested in hearing about what else you had to write with your follow senator, Chuck Hagel, they can pick up a copy of the "Washington Post" this morning.
Senator Joe Biden, thanks for joining us.
BIDEN: Thank you very much, Paula.
ZAHN: Thanks for watching us and have a really good holiday if we don't see you before Christmas comes.
BIDEN: OK. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
ZAHN: Appreciate your time.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 20, 2002 - 08:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Not a trigger, but a turning point. That's how the Bush administration is treating what it calls Iraq's failure to come clean about its weapons of mass destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraq's response is a catalog of recycled information and flagrant omissions. It should be obvious that the pattern of systematic holes and gaps in Iraq's declaration is not the result of accidents or editing oversights or technical mistakes. These are material omissions that in our view constitute another material breach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And Secretary Powell says Iraq is quickly running out of chances to avoid war.
Joining us now to talk about Iraq's declaration and the possibility of war, from Washington, Indiana Senator Richard Lugar, the incoming chairman.
Good to see you again, sir.
Welcome.
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R-IA), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: I just wanted to let you know we should be joined by Senator Joe Biden in a moment or two, but we're going to start our conversation now.
How many chances does Iraq have left to avoid war?
LUGAR: Well, things have moved on a predictable course, unpredictable because of the difference between the zero Security Council vote which set up the inspections. But since that point the Iraqis, as Secretary Powell has pointed out, simply have recycled old material into 12,000 pages, omitting substantial elements that are obvious.
Our objective now, that is, the United States' objective is to get Hans Blix to get scientists, workers, others who really know what is going on out of the country, get their families out so that they can testify freely and at least give the world some idea what is going on there. Without that, the inspectors are likely to wander through there for the next few weeks and find nothing more and then we will come to January 27, a fateful date because that's the date that Hans Blix has to make a substantial report and the date at least which many believe will be the decision-making date for activity, either war or consequences if Iraq does not comply.
ZAHN: Are you confident that inspectors will get to these Iraqi scientists? Because we just interviewed the spokesperson for the IAEA and he said the biggest problem they're going to encounter is having a system in place where you can provide sanctuary for these Iraqi scientists to leave a country.
What kind of support do you think the inspectors will get on this front?
LUGAR: Well, there clearly are great complications when you attempt to get the scientists and their families, under great pressure, out of a country. And I don't deny technical problems. But we're talking about war and peace here. We're talking about weapons of mass destruction, whether the world's going to find them, Saddam is going to destroy them or we're going to destroy them. That is very critical, much more beyond the logistics of the scientists coming out with their families.
ZAHN: How troubled are you that the Russians don't seem to be on the same page at this moment? Senator Powell outlined what he thought were key omissions yesterday and yet this is what the Russian ambassador to the U.N. had to say after the briefing on the declaration.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGEI LAVROV, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: We repeatedly said that we have been hearing allegations that Iraq does continue its WMD programs. We have heard it many times. We never saw any evidence that this is the case. We don't know whether this is true or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: What kind of a challenge does that pose for the U.S. at this point?
LUGAR: Well, no particular challenge the Russians are taking the conventional viewpoint of many Europeans that there will really have to be a smoking gun and all sorts of things laid out for the Security Council before their populaces and others will believe it. In fact, the Russians know better. It so happens that I'm going to be visiting with the Russian foreign minister for breakfast in about a half an hour and we're going to discuss this because they have a very good idea of what's going on.
At some point, why, we will have to have another fateful meeting of the Security Council, in my judgment. The Security Council must take action or it is irrelevant. The consequences are coming due. Now, Saddam in the meanwhile may decide to at least show some things as opposed to abject total denial, which has been the course thus far.
ZAHN: Senator Lugar, we're going to bring Senator Biden into this discussion, but just, if we've got 10 seconds left for Senator Lugar, do you think Senator Lott will be majority leader come next year?
LUGAR: I don't know.
ZAHN: Or will it be Bill Frist?
LUGAR: It's not been a very good week for each one of us working with our colleagues and at this point I'm simply visiting with a good number of members.
ZAHN: And have you decided to stand by Trent Lott or have you made that decision yet?
LUGAR: I've made no decision.
ZAHN: All right, Senator Lugar, thank you for that.
LUGAR: Thank you.
ZAHN: Let's turn to Senator Joe Biden.
Welcome to you, as well, Senator.
I don't know how much of our conversation you heard with Senator Lugar, but I want to sort of change the subject to something you pose in a "Washington Post" editorial today, and that is the issue of what comes after the war, if there is one. And you write, "The most challenging phase will likely be the day after or, more accurately, the decade after Saddam Hussein."
You go on to say that, "Americans, for the most part, are not prepared for what will likely be a huge undertaking."
What do you mean?
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DW), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, I mean probably tens of thousands of American forces in place in Iraq for at least two years, maybe five or more; a cost of up to $20 billion a year in maintaining those forces who will be securing the borders and keeping reprisal killings from happening. You know, it's a very complicated -- I know you know it, I watch you all the time, Paula. You know how complicated it is between the Indo-European Kurds and the Sunni Arabs and the Shia Arabs. You saw what happened in London, how difficult it is to get these groups together.
And every single solitarily leader I met with in the Middle East, including when I was up in northern Iraq in the Kurdish territory, the expectations of the United States being able to hold the country together are so high that it is, it may be a bar that is too high. And the American people should be aware that if we go down, if Saddam continues down the track and we use force, which it looks like more and more is likely to happen, with the support of the international community, that we're in there for a long time and it's going to be a very complicated, very, very complicated situation.
ZAHN: Finally, sir, are you suggesting that the Bush administration is perhaps misleading the American public...
BIDEN: No, I'm...
ZAHN: ... or just that they're not educating the American public to what the demands will be down the road?
BIDEN: They're, I think they're taking this a step at a time. The president committed two months ago to me in front of a large group of six or eight other House and Senate members in the Cabinet Room, that if, in fact, we did use force, he would, before we did, go on the air and tell the American people what was expected of them.
Paula, I'm older than you, but you may remember that Vietnam era, that no foreign policy can be sustained without the informed consent of the American people. And I think we have to inform them that the first part, of taking down Saddam, as dangerous as that is, may be the easiest part in terms of being able to effectively do it. Putting Humpty Dumpty back together again, a country that's never been a coherent country, never been a united entity and making it some sort of democracy, as the president suggests, is going to be a Herculean task.
We'll have to undertake it. I support undertaking it. But the American people should be aware so they're not caught unawares of how much money and how much time we're talking about. This is going to be called nation building, a phrase the administration doesn't like. But we're going to have to put together a nation.
ZAHN: And for folks more interested in hearing about what else you had to write with your follow senator, Chuck Hagel, they can pick up a copy of the "Washington Post" this morning.
Senator Joe Biden, thanks for joining us.
BIDEN: Thank you very much, Paula.
ZAHN: Thanks for watching us and have a really good holiday if we don't see you before Christmas comes.
BIDEN: OK. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
ZAHN: Appreciate your time.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
