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American Morning

2002 In Review: Crime

Aired December 23, 2002 - 07:42   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the war on terrorism, stunning cases of corporate misconduct. What were the year's most important legal stories?
Well, offering their perspective on that now are attorney Johnny Cochran and our own legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Their look at the year in crime is the first in our "2002 in Review" series.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (on camera): Let's quickly review some of the cases that got the most attention this year. John Walker Lindh, sentenced to 20 years in prison. Fair sentence?

JOHNNY COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think on balance, probably so. It's because of this attitude they've had. You know, you've got to be punished, you've got to be punished. And apparently, he pled guilty, and he had very competent counsel. So, I would suspect that's a pretty fair sentence. I mean, they started off talking about death.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, see, that's the thing. I think...

COCHAN: So, and since he got...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: You know, what the Justice Department has to be careful about is hyping its cases. I mean, when he was arrested, there was talk about treason, there was talk about his involvement in shooting at American troops. He wound up pleading guilty to relatively minor offenses. Twenty years is a serious sentence. It's a long way from death. This is a guy who will be out of prison before he's 40 years old. So, he did pretty well considering where he started.

ZAHN: Let's move on to high-profile murder cases, something I guess you know a little bit about, Johnny.

COCHRAN: A little bit, at least I used to.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: The King brothers case. What did you think of the outcome of that trial?

COCHRAN: Well, it's fascinating. I was appalled by the prosecution and the arguments they took in the one case, you know.

ZAHN: Are you going to be trying two sets of people at one time?

COCHRAN: Yes, trying two -- yes. And then you blame one guy over here and then blame somebody else in another trial. I think that's intellectually dishonest. I mean, it was totally disingenuous to try and win, and that's not the prosecutor's role. I think everyone would agree on that.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I'm just so much enjoying the moment when we agree 100 percent on something.

COCHRAN: We do.

ZAHN: It's a rare moment indeed.

TOOBIN: A rare moment.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: The King brothers was a real folly by the prosecutors, but I think the judge pulled it out. I don't think the judge should have let both trials go forward, but upon reflection, he basically forced the sides to come to a plea bargain that was a lot more appropriate given the age of the defendants. And let us say, the seriousness of the crime. I mean, these two kids did kill their father and you can't -- we can't have that.

COCHRAN: We can't have that...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: We can't have that, right, but...

COCHRAN: And he's right about that.

TOOBIN: But it certainly was a better result than the way things started.

ZAHN: Let's move on to the Skakel trial. Were you surprised by that verdict?

COCHRAN: I was surprised.

ZAHN: Were you surprised he was even brought to trial in the first place?

TOOBIN: Yes.

COCHRAN: I was surprised. I mean, I guess I've got to give our old friend, Dominique Donnell (ph)...

TOOBIN: Yes. COCHRAN: ... and his team some credit for that. I am surprises, and you know, I think the defense made a lot of mistakes unfortunately in that. I think it's going to be appealed. I don't know what's going to happen on that, but you know, Mickey Sherman is a fine lawyer, but it really was a horrible loss for the client and for him.

TOOBIN: Yes.

ZAHN: So, you don't think Michael Skakel should be sitting in prison right now.

COCHRAN: Well, I don't know. I don't know enough about the facts. But I mean, I certainly -- we certainly thought he was going to walk on that case, but it didn't turn out that way.

ZAHN: I want to hear both of your judgments on the Enron case and where you see it going.

COCHRAN: Well, I think, you know, it's so fascinating seeing these executives made to do the perp (ph) walk, and I think it sends a real message in this country. I think we're going to...

ZAHN: You think it's a positive thing because they're chained and humiliated.

COCHRAN: I think there should be -- if there's crime in the streets, we know there's crime in the suites (ph), and we need to do something about that. And I think that's the message. You've got to get the message out, we aren't going to tolerate that. And I think that...

ZAHN: Sort of like it's a...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: You know, I'm just sitting here in awe. You know, I am just in awe, and I could sit here 100 years...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I could sit 100 years and never think of a line that good. It is true that it's a good -- I mean, I'm surprised to hear you say that you like those perp (ph) walks. I mean, those people are innocent until proven guilty just like everyone else.

COCHRAN: They are, they are.

TOOBIN: I mean...

COCHRAN: But it kind of evens up all the time my clients have had to walk around, trying to cover up their heads...

ZAHN: Oh, payback time!

(CROSSTALK)

COCHRAN: Payback time.

TOOBIN: That's your great principle (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

COCHRAN: That's right, unfortunately.

TOOBIN: Enron -- I mean, white collar investigations take a long time. Enron is out of the news. The other day...

ZAHN: Will any of them go to prison?

TOOBIN: You bet. You bet.

ZAHN: When?

TOOBIN: These are really good prosecutors. Look, Fastow is going to go to trial this hear. He may plead guilty, turn on higher- ups. There are definitely going to be some prison sentences in this case. But it probably will be later this -- you know, late in 2003. These cases take a long time, but they do move forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Eventually. And a little bit later on in our 9:00 hour, we'll have the second part of my conversation with Cochran and Toobin. You're going to hear what they think about the celebrity cases that have made headlines this year.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.







Aired December 23, 2002 - 07:42   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the war on terrorism, stunning cases of corporate misconduct. What were the year's most important legal stories?
Well, offering their perspective on that now are attorney Johnny Cochran and our own legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Their look at the year in crime is the first in our "2002 in Review" series.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (on camera): Let's quickly review some of the cases that got the most attention this year. John Walker Lindh, sentenced to 20 years in prison. Fair sentence?

JOHNNY COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think on balance, probably so. It's because of this attitude they've had. You know, you've got to be punished, you've got to be punished. And apparently, he pled guilty, and he had very competent counsel. So, I would suspect that's a pretty fair sentence. I mean, they started off talking about death.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, see, that's the thing. I think...

COCHAN: So, and since he got...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: You know, what the Justice Department has to be careful about is hyping its cases. I mean, when he was arrested, there was talk about treason, there was talk about his involvement in shooting at American troops. He wound up pleading guilty to relatively minor offenses. Twenty years is a serious sentence. It's a long way from death. This is a guy who will be out of prison before he's 40 years old. So, he did pretty well considering where he started.

ZAHN: Let's move on to high-profile murder cases, something I guess you know a little bit about, Johnny.

COCHRAN: A little bit, at least I used to.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: The King brothers case. What did you think of the outcome of that trial?

COCHRAN: Well, it's fascinating. I was appalled by the prosecution and the arguments they took in the one case, you know.

ZAHN: Are you going to be trying two sets of people at one time?

COCHRAN: Yes, trying two -- yes. And then you blame one guy over here and then blame somebody else in another trial. I think that's intellectually dishonest. I mean, it was totally disingenuous to try and win, and that's not the prosecutor's role. I think everyone would agree on that.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I'm just so much enjoying the moment when we agree 100 percent on something.

COCHRAN: We do.

ZAHN: It's a rare moment indeed.

TOOBIN: A rare moment.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: The King brothers was a real folly by the prosecutors, but I think the judge pulled it out. I don't think the judge should have let both trials go forward, but upon reflection, he basically forced the sides to come to a plea bargain that was a lot more appropriate given the age of the defendants. And let us say, the seriousness of the crime. I mean, these two kids did kill their father and you can't -- we can't have that.

COCHRAN: We can't have that...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: We can't have that, right, but...

COCHRAN: And he's right about that.

TOOBIN: But it certainly was a better result than the way things started.

ZAHN: Let's move on to the Skakel trial. Were you surprised by that verdict?

COCHRAN: I was surprised.

ZAHN: Were you surprised he was even brought to trial in the first place?

TOOBIN: Yes.

COCHRAN: I was surprised. I mean, I guess I've got to give our old friend, Dominique Donnell (ph)...

TOOBIN: Yes. COCHRAN: ... and his team some credit for that. I am surprises, and you know, I think the defense made a lot of mistakes unfortunately in that. I think it's going to be appealed. I don't know what's going to happen on that, but you know, Mickey Sherman is a fine lawyer, but it really was a horrible loss for the client and for him.

TOOBIN: Yes.

ZAHN: So, you don't think Michael Skakel should be sitting in prison right now.

COCHRAN: Well, I don't know. I don't know enough about the facts. But I mean, I certainly -- we certainly thought he was going to walk on that case, but it didn't turn out that way.

ZAHN: I want to hear both of your judgments on the Enron case and where you see it going.

COCHRAN: Well, I think, you know, it's so fascinating seeing these executives made to do the perp (ph) walk, and I think it sends a real message in this country. I think we're going to...

ZAHN: You think it's a positive thing because they're chained and humiliated.

COCHRAN: I think there should be -- if there's crime in the streets, we know there's crime in the suites (ph), and we need to do something about that. And I think that's the message. You've got to get the message out, we aren't going to tolerate that. And I think that...

ZAHN: Sort of like it's a...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: You know, I'm just sitting here in awe. You know, I am just in awe, and I could sit here 100 years...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: I could sit 100 years and never think of a line that good. It is true that it's a good -- I mean, I'm surprised to hear you say that you like those perp (ph) walks. I mean, those people are innocent until proven guilty just like everyone else.

COCHRAN: They are, they are.

TOOBIN: I mean...

COCHRAN: But it kind of evens up all the time my clients have had to walk around, trying to cover up their heads...

ZAHN: Oh, payback time!

(CROSSTALK)

COCHRAN: Payback time.

TOOBIN: That's your great principle (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

COCHRAN: That's right, unfortunately.

TOOBIN: Enron -- I mean, white collar investigations take a long time. Enron is out of the news. The other day...

ZAHN: Will any of them go to prison?

TOOBIN: You bet. You bet.

ZAHN: When?

TOOBIN: These are really good prosecutors. Look, Fastow is going to go to trial this hear. He may plead guilty, turn on higher- ups. There are definitely going to be some prison sentences in this case. But it probably will be later this -- you know, late in 2003. These cases take a long time, but they do move forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Eventually. And a little bit later on in our 9:00 hour, we'll have the second part of my conversation with Cochran and Toobin. You're going to hear what they think about the celebrity cases that have made headlines this year.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.