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American Morning
Motown Music
Aired January 14, 2003 - 09:49 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: If you mention the Motown sound, just about everyone knows what you mean.
Diana Ross and The Supremes were among the biggest in a stable of stars that include The Temptations, The Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, and the man behind the Motown sound was Berry Gordy. Now there is a new book out that offers a behind-the-scene look at the rise and fall of the legendary record label. It is called "Motown, Music, Money, Sex and Power." The author, Gerald Posner, joins us.
I can't believe what you dig into. One year it's JFK's assassination. Why Motown?
GERALD POSNER, AUTHOR: You know, everybody takes a little bit of a break. David Halberstam (ph) took a break on baseball, and Doris Kearns Goodwin took a break on baseball. My break was Motown. I grew up on this music. I loved it. And a friend of mine, a music journalist, said a few years ago, you know, he said, all of the stars have written their own books, they're whitewashes, they're terrible, they're what they want they want you to believe about the history of Motown. You couldn't come up with this get this cast of characters. They've had music critics look at them, but no independent journalist has ever gone in and told this story that's part Greek Tragedy, part soap opera, and really seen the inside as a company comes up literally nothing, kids from the ghetto going to the top of the music world, create a soundtrack for our generation, Paula, and then at the very top all the things you expect, jealousy, fight love affairs that go bad, sourness, bitter rivalries, bring it all down.
ZAHN: Which is biggest lie we've bought along the way?
POSNER: I think the biggest lie that we bought is this was one happy family. Barry Gordy was the father and these were all teenagers. You had Stevie Wonder, who was 10 years old, Michael Jackson, who was 10. The Surpremes were only teenagers at the time when they came up. Mary Wells was only 16 years old. And that Gordy led this happy family, and they all went along and went to the top of the charts. Yes, it was family, but capital D, Dysfunctional, and that's what really happened.
ZAHN: What is the truth?
POSNER: The truth is that they did create a sound that was absolutely fantastic, the Motown sound was unique, and that Gordy had a really unusual ear for good music, and he came across some of the best acts possible. But in the early days and early '60s they did have that magic. But what happened afterwards is that that they created for themselves. I think grew to dislike each other. They lived together, essentially. They traveled together. There were no managers or agents here. Motown was the manager and agent for all of the stars.
So today, if you have Mariah Carey or somebody signed to a label, she doesn't stay with the label. She doesn't travel with the rest of the stars here. They lived together. They learned to like each other and to hate each other. That's why it's an unusual extended family.
ZAHN: You had to work pretty hard on this, because none of these players would talk to you. So you got your information ultimately, the best information, at the courthouse? What did you find?
POSNER: You'll appreciate this. If I go to Berry Gordy and say, by the way, I'm the biographer of James Earl Ray and Joseph Mengle , (ph) and Lee Harvey Oswald, why don't you talk to me, no wonder he doesn't want to talk to me. Inside every good relationship over the years ended up between artist and company in a lawsuit, and so I went back as the old lawyer in me, inside the archives of the Detroit County courthouse, downstairs in the basement, Paula, there are enough to fill up this studio. There are reams of papers inside dozens of metal file cabinets, and there is real story of the label. Their depositions taken in early '60s, mid '60s, late '60s when the Jacksons leave Motown and they fight over their label.
ZAHN: And you say that was all over him spending much time on Diana Ross?
POSNER: It's so interesting, Gordy lost it all of a sudden, because what he did is he forgot what made his core. He had studio system involved, but he forgot about music, and left the music aside to people in Detroit that weren't good at it, went to Hollywood, and decided to make Diana Ross, his lover, into a major star. And of course "Lady Sings The Blues" was a wonderful thing. She wins the Golden Globe. She's nominated for the Academy Award.
But then they do "Mahogany," which was so-so, and then Gordy allows her to talk him into casting her in "The Wiz," which was probably the biggest casting mistake from hell that you could ever make. She just wasn't right for the role. It ruins her career, and he loses Jackson 5 at that point, who go out to CBS, and that's the end of the label in many ways.
ZAHN: Final thought on Diana Ross these days? That terrible story about her being arrested for DUI.
POSNER: I think she invented the world "diva." I have in the book how she almost runs over a rival at one point, this terrible thing. But she needs to almost admit her problems today. If we could create a bit of sympathy for herself, if we could see her in less than just that sort of wall that she's created over the years, maybe people would actually feel sorry for her for the first time. She's somebody who has to admit she has a problem at this stage. ZAHN: Well, I'll tell you , you do your homework. The latest book -- I can't believe the variety subjects you've tackled over the years. The latest book "Music, Money, Sex and Power," how Motown started off.
Gerald Posner, great to see you. Good luck to you. Looks like it will be very fast read. I just got my copy last night, looks like fun.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 14, 2003 - 09:49 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: If you mention the Motown sound, just about everyone knows what you mean.
Diana Ross and The Supremes were among the biggest in a stable of stars that include The Temptations, The Jackson 5, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye, and the man behind the Motown sound was Berry Gordy. Now there is a new book out that offers a behind-the-scene look at the rise and fall of the legendary record label. It is called "Motown, Music, Money, Sex and Power." The author, Gerald Posner, joins us.
I can't believe what you dig into. One year it's JFK's assassination. Why Motown?
GERALD POSNER, AUTHOR: You know, everybody takes a little bit of a break. David Halberstam (ph) took a break on baseball, and Doris Kearns Goodwin took a break on baseball. My break was Motown. I grew up on this music. I loved it. And a friend of mine, a music journalist, said a few years ago, you know, he said, all of the stars have written their own books, they're whitewashes, they're terrible, they're what they want they want you to believe about the history of Motown. You couldn't come up with this get this cast of characters. They've had music critics look at them, but no independent journalist has ever gone in and told this story that's part Greek Tragedy, part soap opera, and really seen the inside as a company comes up literally nothing, kids from the ghetto going to the top of the music world, create a soundtrack for our generation, Paula, and then at the very top all the things you expect, jealousy, fight love affairs that go bad, sourness, bitter rivalries, bring it all down.
ZAHN: Which is biggest lie we've bought along the way?
POSNER: I think the biggest lie that we bought is this was one happy family. Barry Gordy was the father and these were all teenagers. You had Stevie Wonder, who was 10 years old, Michael Jackson, who was 10. The Surpremes were only teenagers at the time when they came up. Mary Wells was only 16 years old. And that Gordy led this happy family, and they all went along and went to the top of the charts. Yes, it was family, but capital D, Dysfunctional, and that's what really happened.
ZAHN: What is the truth?
POSNER: The truth is that they did create a sound that was absolutely fantastic, the Motown sound was unique, and that Gordy had a really unusual ear for good music, and he came across some of the best acts possible. But in the early days and early '60s they did have that magic. But what happened afterwards is that that they created for themselves. I think grew to dislike each other. They lived together, essentially. They traveled together. There were no managers or agents here. Motown was the manager and agent for all of the stars.
So today, if you have Mariah Carey or somebody signed to a label, she doesn't stay with the label. She doesn't travel with the rest of the stars here. They lived together. They learned to like each other and to hate each other. That's why it's an unusual extended family.
ZAHN: You had to work pretty hard on this, because none of these players would talk to you. So you got your information ultimately, the best information, at the courthouse? What did you find?
POSNER: You'll appreciate this. If I go to Berry Gordy and say, by the way, I'm the biographer of James Earl Ray and Joseph Mengle , (ph) and Lee Harvey Oswald, why don't you talk to me, no wonder he doesn't want to talk to me. Inside every good relationship over the years ended up between artist and company in a lawsuit, and so I went back as the old lawyer in me, inside the archives of the Detroit County courthouse, downstairs in the basement, Paula, there are enough to fill up this studio. There are reams of papers inside dozens of metal file cabinets, and there is real story of the label. Their depositions taken in early '60s, mid '60s, late '60s when the Jacksons leave Motown and they fight over their label.
ZAHN: And you say that was all over him spending much time on Diana Ross?
POSNER: It's so interesting, Gordy lost it all of a sudden, because what he did is he forgot what made his core. He had studio system involved, but he forgot about music, and left the music aside to people in Detroit that weren't good at it, went to Hollywood, and decided to make Diana Ross, his lover, into a major star. And of course "Lady Sings The Blues" was a wonderful thing. She wins the Golden Globe. She's nominated for the Academy Award.
But then they do "Mahogany," which was so-so, and then Gordy allows her to talk him into casting her in "The Wiz," which was probably the biggest casting mistake from hell that you could ever make. She just wasn't right for the role. It ruins her career, and he loses Jackson 5 at that point, who go out to CBS, and that's the end of the label in many ways.
ZAHN: Final thought on Diana Ross these days? That terrible story about her being arrested for DUI.
POSNER: I think she invented the world "diva." I have in the book how she almost runs over a rival at one point, this terrible thing. But she needs to almost admit her problems today. If we could create a bit of sympathy for herself, if we could see her in less than just that sort of wall that she's created over the years, maybe people would actually feel sorry for her for the first time. She's somebody who has to admit she has a problem at this stage. ZAHN: Well, I'll tell you , you do your homework. The latest book -- I can't believe the variety subjects you've tackled over the years. The latest book "Music, Money, Sex and Power," how Motown started off.
Gerald Posner, great to see you. Good luck to you. Looks like it will be very fast read. I just got my copy last night, looks like fun.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
