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American Morning

Military Hearing Under Way in Louisiana

Aired January 16, 2003 - 08:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back now to the military hearing under way in Louisiana which will determine whether or not two air force pilots are to be court-martialed. Those pilots involved in that friendly fire tragedy last April outside of Kandahar. Dramatic cockpit tapes released yesterday showed the pilots believed they were under attack when they dropped a 500 pound laser guided bomb. The bomb killed four Canadians, wounded eight others.
From Tucson, Arizona with his analysis of these tapes and more, our military analyst, Retired Air Force General Don Shepperd.

Don, good morning to you.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning.

HEMMER: It's a tough, tough story, again, as we heard and saw from yesterday. Let's let our viewers have another glimpse yesterday of part of that conversation in the cockpit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, I've got a, I've got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us. I am rolling in in self-defense. Bombs away, cranking left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: That was about a 30 second conversation compressed into about 10 seconds. What's critical when you heard these tapes yesterday?

SHEPPERD: Yes, Bill, this is a very tragic thing. Two good guys here, these are not bad guys, but they made a terrible, terrible mistake. Basically what went on before this tape that we just heard is they were talking to AWACs. They were looking at ground fire. One of the pilots, the pilot on the right, Major Schmidt, thought that they were under attack and decided to drop a bomb.

He asked for permission to lay down some 20 mik-mik (ph), which is 20 millimeter ammunition from his guns. He was told to stand by. His flight lead on the left, Major Umbach, basically said let's make sure it's not friendlies. And then later the air, the AWACs also told him to hold fire, we need details on safire (ph), surface to air fire.

Four seconds after that, he rolled in and said he was rolling in in self-defense. Now, you are allowed to defend yourself if you feel that you are under attack. On the other hand, the questions are were his actions reasonable?

Shortly after that, the AWACs came back, about a minute after that, after the bomb had already gone off, and said disengage, friendlies, Kandahar, and then 10 seconds after that he said you are cleared self-defense. So there was a lot of confusion going on between the controlling agency and these pilots.

But the key question is this, why did you not, if you were under attack, go to higher altitude, leave the area, report this and come back later? That's the key at the investigational center, you know, were your actions reasonable?

HEMMER: In court, then, determining whether or not these men are to be court-martialed, and, again, all of this is hindsight right now, as we well know. Is that the issue that you want to know?

SHEPPERD: Yes, the issue is there's a, there are two investigations, the initial investigation and then a Title 32 hearing, which is like a grand jury. That's what's going on now. Now, that will determine whether or not this proceeds to a court martial. A court martial is a trial and at that court martial will be a jury of peers, people that have been in these situations, and they will decide guilt or innocent, if it proceeds to a court martial, and it may not, Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Don, listen, I want to go back to some of the tape from the cockpit, I want to, yet again from yesterday. Listen to the conversation that came later then above Kandahar.

SHEPPERD: Right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a group of guys on a road around a gun and it did not look organized like it would be our guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed like it was right on a bridge. That's kind of where I was at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not quite.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope that was the right thing to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: You heard it.

A couple of quick questions here, Don.

It seems right now the evidence is suggesting that perhaps the Canadians were not well marked enough. That's what defense attorneys are arguing. They're also suggesting these speed or go pills may have had something to do with this. The other issue mentioned is altitude. When all this comes into play, when you examine this and take a step back, the first time something like this has ever taken place, are you surprised that this hearing is even under way?

SHEPPERD: No, I'm not surprised at all. Basically the basic principle is that whatever you do, even if it's in academic with the rules, you will be held accountable for the results. Just like you, Bill. If you have an automobile accident, the fact that you're a good guy and have a clean driving record, if you kill someone, you are likely going to be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

This is not the first time this has happened. Every friendly fire incident there are investigations and based upon those investigations, the commander then decides whether or not to send this forward to more investigations and possibly a court martial. That's what's going on and it's tough business, Bill.

HEMMER: And, Don, earlier you said it may not go to a court martial. Is that your bet right now?

SHEPPERD: No, that's not my bet. I don't have all the evidence. All I've got is pieces of information like we just viewed. That's not enough to determine this. This Title 32 hearing that's going on right now, the results will be offered to Bruce Carlson, Lieutenant General Bruce Carlson, the commander of Eighth Air Force. He will decide whether or not this goes forward to the court martial.

HEMMER: Thanks, Don.

Don Shepperd in Arizona.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 16, 2003 - 08:18   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to get back now to the military hearing under way in Louisiana which will determine whether or not two air force pilots are to be court-martialed. Those pilots involved in that friendly fire tragedy last April outside of Kandahar. Dramatic cockpit tapes released yesterday showed the pilots believed they were under attack when they dropped a 500 pound laser guided bomb. The bomb killed four Canadians, wounded eight others.
From Tucson, Arizona with his analysis of these tapes and more, our military analyst, Retired Air Force General Don Shepperd.

Don, good morning to you.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning.

HEMMER: It's a tough, tough story, again, as we heard and saw from yesterday. Let's let our viewers have another glimpse yesterday of part of that conversation in the cockpit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, I've got a, I've got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us. I am rolling in in self-defense. Bombs away, cranking left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: That was about a 30 second conversation compressed into about 10 seconds. What's critical when you heard these tapes yesterday?

SHEPPERD: Yes, Bill, this is a very tragic thing. Two good guys here, these are not bad guys, but they made a terrible, terrible mistake. Basically what went on before this tape that we just heard is they were talking to AWACs. They were looking at ground fire. One of the pilots, the pilot on the right, Major Schmidt, thought that they were under attack and decided to drop a bomb.

He asked for permission to lay down some 20 mik-mik (ph), which is 20 millimeter ammunition from his guns. He was told to stand by. His flight lead on the left, Major Umbach, basically said let's make sure it's not friendlies. And then later the air, the AWACs also told him to hold fire, we need details on safire (ph), surface to air fire.

Four seconds after that, he rolled in and said he was rolling in in self-defense. Now, you are allowed to defend yourself if you feel that you are under attack. On the other hand, the questions are were his actions reasonable?

Shortly after that, the AWACs came back, about a minute after that, after the bomb had already gone off, and said disengage, friendlies, Kandahar, and then 10 seconds after that he said you are cleared self-defense. So there was a lot of confusion going on between the controlling agency and these pilots.

But the key question is this, why did you not, if you were under attack, go to higher altitude, leave the area, report this and come back later? That's the key at the investigational center, you know, were your actions reasonable?

HEMMER: In court, then, determining whether or not these men are to be court-martialed, and, again, all of this is hindsight right now, as we well know. Is that the issue that you want to know?

SHEPPERD: Yes, the issue is there's a, there are two investigations, the initial investigation and then a Title 32 hearing, which is like a grand jury. That's what's going on now. Now, that will determine whether or not this proceeds to a court martial. A court martial is a trial and at that court martial will be a jury of peers, people that have been in these situations, and they will decide guilt or innocent, if it proceeds to a court martial, and it may not, Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Don, listen, I want to go back to some of the tape from the cockpit, I want to, yet again from yesterday. Listen to the conversation that came later then above Kandahar.

SHEPPERD: Right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a group of guys on a road around a gun and it did not look organized like it would be our guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed like it was right on a bridge. That's kind of where I was at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not quite.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope that was the right thing to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: You heard it.

A couple of quick questions here, Don.

It seems right now the evidence is suggesting that perhaps the Canadians were not well marked enough. That's what defense attorneys are arguing. They're also suggesting these speed or go pills may have had something to do with this. The other issue mentioned is altitude. When all this comes into play, when you examine this and take a step back, the first time something like this has ever taken place, are you surprised that this hearing is even under way?

SHEPPERD: No, I'm not surprised at all. Basically the basic principle is that whatever you do, even if it's in academic with the rules, you will be held accountable for the results. Just like you, Bill. If you have an automobile accident, the fact that you're a good guy and have a clean driving record, if you kill someone, you are likely going to be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

This is not the first time this has happened. Every friendly fire incident there are investigations and based upon those investigations, the commander then decides whether or not to send this forward to more investigations and possibly a court martial. That's what's going on and it's tough business, Bill.

HEMMER: And, Don, earlier you said it may not go to a court martial. Is that your bet right now?

SHEPPERD: No, that's not my bet. I don't have all the evidence. All I've got is pieces of information like we just viewed. That's not enough to determine this. This Title 32 hearing that's going on right now, the results will be offered to Bruce Carlson, Lieutenant General Bruce Carlson, the commander of Eighth Air Force. He will decide whether or not this goes forward to the court martial.

HEMMER: Thanks, Don.

Don Shepperd in Arizona.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com