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American Morning

Soundoff: Interview With Bill Dal Col, Katrina Vanden Heuvel

Aired January 23, 2003 - 09:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now, with firm opposition from key allies from France and Germany, the Bush administration faces a possible war in Iraq without U.N. backing, but President Bush is not backing away, as Suzanne just reported, from his position that Saddam Hussein presents a real risk to the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's interested in playing hide and seek in a huge country. He's not interested in disarming. I hope the world has learned the lessons from the past, just like Saddam Hussein has learned the lessons from the past, but in a different way. It's time for us to hold the world to account.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining me from Washington now is Bill Dal Col, a Republican strategist. In New York, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, an editor from "The Nation" magazine. Good to see both of you. Welcome.

BILL DAL COL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good to be here.

ZAHN: Katrina, I want to start with you this morning. There has been a great deal of interest in this broadcast, particularly from our viewers, in what the French and German will ultimately do here, and I just wanted to share with our audience something the French foreign minister said earlier this week to get your reaction, and he said -- quote -- "already we know for a fact that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are being largely blocked, even frozen."

Now he said this earlier this week in advance of this report coming out next Monday. Was that a responsible thing for him to say? Particularly when Colin Powell said yesterday there is more information and more knowledge that ultimately will have to be shared with our allies?

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, "THE NATION": Well, I mean, I think there is a trust gap, a creditability gap in this country at this moment where a majority of Americans don't believe the Bush administration has made the case or presented the evidence. But more important, if you look back at Gulf War I, the international community did far more with inspections to disarm Iraq, if that is the U.S.'s goal, than the war. And I think what's most interesting at this moment is how public opinion, the majority opinion in this country, the United States, is more in sync with the Europeans -- French, Germany, Rumsfeld may call them the old Europe, but Americans, the majority, are in sync with the view that give inspectors more time, work with the United Nations. We need allies. At this moment...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... just address my question for a second.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Sure, sure.

ZAHN: Was that a responsible...

(AUDIO GAP)

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... responsible, Paula, for Donald Rumsfeld to say "old Europe" in a derogatory way, or for our president, the leader of America, to talk about war or inspections as a "bad movie," a bad rerun he doesn't want to see, is that respectful of a democracy that should do everything in its power to avert war?

ZAHN: Bill Dal Col, do you want to answer that question?

DAL COL: I think, Paula, it's pretty straightforward. First, the American people are clearly with the president on this situation, they want Saddam Hussein disarmed. You have got a question from 1998 that has not been answered yet. When they left in 1998, there were 30,000 warheads with chemicals in them, there were 400 biological warheads that we knew of. They have not proven that they have disposed of those.

The French statement speaks for itself. They believe that you can contain them, which acknowledges the fact that he still has arms. The U.N. resolutions were clear. He was to disarm. The president, in the State of Union, will continue to educate the American people. The report at the U.N. will come out on the 27th, which will indicate that he is in breach, and then we will go through the pragmatic, structured steps to bring the coalition along with us, and then we will go in and do what we have to do, which is disarm Saddam Hussein.

ZAHN: All right. Bill, you make the point that the American public is with the president at this point, and yet the polls we have looked at over the last couple of weeks, whether it's the "Washington Post" ABC News poll, or our own shows growing doubt with the American public about a war effort, and the numbers kind of fall part if there is no smoking gun. Would you acknowledge that today?

DAL COL: No, what I will say is you have got to look at the poll and how it's asked. If you ask the American people straight forwardly, should Saddam Hussein, with dangerous weapons of mass destruction be disarmed, they're clearly in favor of disarming him.

You can parse and trip statements along the way. Clearly the majority still support disarming him, and when the president gets done making his case, not only in the State of the Union, but in the days after that with additional information, we will not only bring our allies along, the American people will be firmly behind the president of the United States. They understand what a dangerous potential Saddam represents, not only to the United States but to the world at large. ZAHN: Now, Katrina, there are a bunch of people who feel the same way Bill does this morning. In a couple editorials this morning, folks say ultimately the French will come along because of their business interests and their concern about Iraqi oil.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, there may be a coalition of the coerced, not the willing, but in terms of business interests, Vice President Cheney's staff hosted a meeting for oil execs, including Halliburton, Chevron, and others to discuss the potential oil fields in Iraq if the U.S. comes in.

The U.S. is clearly interested, not in going to war against Iraq to combat terrorism, to halt the spread of weapons of mass destruction, or to promote democracy, all valuable goals that require allies to do effectively through treaties and international institutions, not war. The United States is interested in reshaping the Middle East and in oil...

(CROSSTALK)

VANDEN HEUVEL: Be honest with the American people about that.

ZAHN: Katrina, are you saying that Russia is not interested in the Iraq oil, and France? A quick thought on that, and Bill, you get to close it out. You have got 15 seconds, I have got to hold you to it.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Paula, I'll lay it right on the case. It is pretty clear we are there to get rid of weapons of mass destruction, we are there to help the Iraqi people reach a democratic government. We are looking at the security of the world, and the security of the American people. The president has it well in hand, the case will be made, our allies will be with us, and the American people will be with us.

ZAHN: Katrina, you get the last word.

VANDEN HEUVEL: I think that the American people are wise and have common sense that this will not make America more secure, and that Bush's policy has done more to isolate the United States than to isolate terrorists.

ZAHN: And I see Bill rolling his eyes, but we have got to move on. Bill Dal Col, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, thank you for both of your perspectives.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Heuvel>


Aired January 23, 2003 - 09:07   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now, with firm opposition from key allies from France and Germany, the Bush administration faces a possible war in Iraq without U.N. backing, but President Bush is not backing away, as Suzanne just reported, from his position that Saddam Hussein presents a real risk to the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's interested in playing hide and seek in a huge country. He's not interested in disarming. I hope the world has learned the lessons from the past, just like Saddam Hussein has learned the lessons from the past, but in a different way. It's time for us to hold the world to account.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Joining me from Washington now is Bill Dal Col, a Republican strategist. In New York, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, an editor from "The Nation" magazine. Good to see both of you. Welcome.

BILL DAL COL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good to be here.

ZAHN: Katrina, I want to start with you this morning. There has been a great deal of interest in this broadcast, particularly from our viewers, in what the French and German will ultimately do here, and I just wanted to share with our audience something the French foreign minister said earlier this week to get your reaction, and he said -- quote -- "already we know for a fact that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are being largely blocked, even frozen."

Now he said this earlier this week in advance of this report coming out next Monday. Was that a responsible thing for him to say? Particularly when Colin Powell said yesterday there is more information and more knowledge that ultimately will have to be shared with our allies?

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, "THE NATION": Well, I mean, I think there is a trust gap, a creditability gap in this country at this moment where a majority of Americans don't believe the Bush administration has made the case or presented the evidence. But more important, if you look back at Gulf War I, the international community did far more with inspections to disarm Iraq, if that is the U.S.'s goal, than the war. And I think what's most interesting at this moment is how public opinion, the majority opinion in this country, the United States, is more in sync with the Europeans -- French, Germany, Rumsfeld may call them the old Europe, but Americans, the majority, are in sync with the view that give inspectors more time, work with the United Nations. We need allies. At this moment...

(CROSSTALK)

ZAHN: ... just address my question for a second.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Sure, sure.

ZAHN: Was that a responsible...

(AUDIO GAP)

VANDEN HEUVEL: ... responsible, Paula, for Donald Rumsfeld to say "old Europe" in a derogatory way, or for our president, the leader of America, to talk about war or inspections as a "bad movie," a bad rerun he doesn't want to see, is that respectful of a democracy that should do everything in its power to avert war?

ZAHN: Bill Dal Col, do you want to answer that question?

DAL COL: I think, Paula, it's pretty straightforward. First, the American people are clearly with the president on this situation, they want Saddam Hussein disarmed. You have got a question from 1998 that has not been answered yet. When they left in 1998, there were 30,000 warheads with chemicals in them, there were 400 biological warheads that we knew of. They have not proven that they have disposed of those.

The French statement speaks for itself. They believe that you can contain them, which acknowledges the fact that he still has arms. The U.N. resolutions were clear. He was to disarm. The president, in the State of Union, will continue to educate the American people. The report at the U.N. will come out on the 27th, which will indicate that he is in breach, and then we will go through the pragmatic, structured steps to bring the coalition along with us, and then we will go in and do what we have to do, which is disarm Saddam Hussein.

ZAHN: All right. Bill, you make the point that the American public is with the president at this point, and yet the polls we have looked at over the last couple of weeks, whether it's the "Washington Post" ABC News poll, or our own shows growing doubt with the American public about a war effort, and the numbers kind of fall part if there is no smoking gun. Would you acknowledge that today?

DAL COL: No, what I will say is you have got to look at the poll and how it's asked. If you ask the American people straight forwardly, should Saddam Hussein, with dangerous weapons of mass destruction be disarmed, they're clearly in favor of disarming him.

You can parse and trip statements along the way. Clearly the majority still support disarming him, and when the president gets done making his case, not only in the State of the Union, but in the days after that with additional information, we will not only bring our allies along, the American people will be firmly behind the president of the United States. They understand what a dangerous potential Saddam represents, not only to the United States but to the world at large. ZAHN: Now, Katrina, there are a bunch of people who feel the same way Bill does this morning. In a couple editorials this morning, folks say ultimately the French will come along because of their business interests and their concern about Iraqi oil.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, there may be a coalition of the coerced, not the willing, but in terms of business interests, Vice President Cheney's staff hosted a meeting for oil execs, including Halliburton, Chevron, and others to discuss the potential oil fields in Iraq if the U.S. comes in.

The U.S. is clearly interested, not in going to war against Iraq to combat terrorism, to halt the spread of weapons of mass destruction, or to promote democracy, all valuable goals that require allies to do effectively through treaties and international institutions, not war. The United States is interested in reshaping the Middle East and in oil...

(CROSSTALK)

VANDEN HEUVEL: Be honest with the American people about that.

ZAHN: Katrina, are you saying that Russia is not interested in the Iraq oil, and France? A quick thought on that, and Bill, you get to close it out. You have got 15 seconds, I have got to hold you to it.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Paula, I'll lay it right on the case. It is pretty clear we are there to get rid of weapons of mass destruction, we are there to help the Iraqi people reach a democratic government. We are looking at the security of the world, and the security of the American people. The president has it well in hand, the case will be made, our allies will be with us, and the American people will be with us.

ZAHN: Katrina, you get the last word.

VANDEN HEUVEL: I think that the American people are wise and have common sense that this will not make America more secure, and that Bush's policy has done more to isolate the United States than to isolate terrorists.

ZAHN: And I see Bill rolling his eyes, but we have got to move on. Bill Dal Col, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, thank you for both of your perspectives.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Heuvel>