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American Morning

I Object!: Three Men Fired After 1998 Incident

Aired January 30, 2003 - 07:44   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) firefighters are suing New York City to get their jobs back. The three men were fired in 1998 for riding on a parade float with a racist theme. The float called "black to the future 2098" was supposed to be a parody. Well, many people found it offensive. Now, the men say the city violated their right to free speech.
Jeffrey Toobin disagrees, and he's here to explain why in our legal segment called "I Object!"

What do you object to? Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I object. All right, you see those guys, those geniuses on this float. The best part about the float was the one guy who was dragged in the back, supposedly like James Byrd in the -- you know, from Texas. That was the great climax of this float. And of course, these guys were fired. Good. These people should have been fired.

And now, they are suing...

ZAHN: Why? Do you surrender your right to free speech when you work for a city agency? I don't follow.

TOOBIN: Lots of people surrender your free speech rights. For example, you and I -- you and I are perfectly free under the First Amendment to go work on political campaigns. But we would be fired if we did, because it is inconsistent with our jobs as news people. It is inconsistent with your job as a cop, as a firefighter, to be a public flagrant racist, and that's why they were fired.

ZAHN: So, what kind of a case do they have?

TOOBIN: Well, the argument they're making is that this was totally private behavior. But think about this. If they were involved in any sort of controversial action on the job, if there was a bad shooting, if there was -- there they are -- if there was some sort of incident on the job, how is the city supposed to defend their behavior if this kind of tape existed of their...

ZAHN: So, walk us through what their attorney will be doing.

TOOBIN: All right. They have -- there was a trial. The trial has already taken place in early January. There's no decision yet. It was a three-day trial in federal court here. They brought in former Mayor Guiliani to testify, because they claimed that the only reason they were fired is because of political pressure from Guiliani. And Guiliani quite openly testified, yes, I thought they should be fired, but they actually were fired through the regular, you know, grievance process. And they testified, of course, that they really meant this all as a joke, it was all in good fun.

Their best argument, I thought this was funny, they said they were making fun of the racist reputation of the community where the parade took place by acting like racists, which of course makes no sense at all. But you know, they had to say something.

ZAHN: And so, you're saying that their defense is a joke.

TOOBIN: I think their defense is completely preposterous, and the legal standard that has to be met by the city, the city has to show that there's either an actual or a potential disruption to their job duties by...

ZAHN: So let me get this straight.

TOOBIN: Sure.

ZAHN: So, an average citizen can parody something in society as long as it's not being racist when they work for a city agency that demands that they not be racist.

TOOBIN: Exactly. But it's just sort of common sense. I mean, can you imagine -- one of the witnesses at that trial was a firefighter who might potentially work with two of those firefighters. And he says, you know, if I'm running into a burning building -- he's a black lieutenant in the fire department. And he said, if I'm running into a burning building, how am I going to know that guys like this have my back? It's a good question. I don't see how you can possibly claim that as anything other than a firing offense.

ZAHN: Always delighted to have Jeffrey Toobin come on for "I Object!"

TOOBIN: I'm...

ZAHN: Fiercely...

TOOBIN: Fiercely...

ZAHN: Fiercely objecting this morning. Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired January 30, 2003 - 07:44   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) firefighters are suing New York City to get their jobs back. The three men were fired in 1998 for riding on a parade float with a racist theme. The float called "black to the future 2098" was supposed to be a parody. Well, many people found it offensive. Now, the men say the city violated their right to free speech.
Jeffrey Toobin disagrees, and he's here to explain why in our legal segment called "I Object!"

What do you object to? Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I object. All right, you see those guys, those geniuses on this float. The best part about the float was the one guy who was dragged in the back, supposedly like James Byrd in the -- you know, from Texas. That was the great climax of this float. And of course, these guys were fired. Good. These people should have been fired.

And now, they are suing...

ZAHN: Why? Do you surrender your right to free speech when you work for a city agency? I don't follow.

TOOBIN: Lots of people surrender your free speech rights. For example, you and I -- you and I are perfectly free under the First Amendment to go work on political campaigns. But we would be fired if we did, because it is inconsistent with our jobs as news people. It is inconsistent with your job as a cop, as a firefighter, to be a public flagrant racist, and that's why they were fired.

ZAHN: So, what kind of a case do they have?

TOOBIN: Well, the argument they're making is that this was totally private behavior. But think about this. If they were involved in any sort of controversial action on the job, if there was a bad shooting, if there was -- there they are -- if there was some sort of incident on the job, how is the city supposed to defend their behavior if this kind of tape existed of their...

ZAHN: So, walk us through what their attorney will be doing.

TOOBIN: All right. They have -- there was a trial. The trial has already taken place in early January. There's no decision yet. It was a three-day trial in federal court here. They brought in former Mayor Guiliani to testify, because they claimed that the only reason they were fired is because of political pressure from Guiliani. And Guiliani quite openly testified, yes, I thought they should be fired, but they actually were fired through the regular, you know, grievance process. And they testified, of course, that they really meant this all as a joke, it was all in good fun.

Their best argument, I thought this was funny, they said they were making fun of the racist reputation of the community where the parade took place by acting like racists, which of course makes no sense at all. But you know, they had to say something.

ZAHN: And so, you're saying that their defense is a joke.

TOOBIN: I think their defense is completely preposterous, and the legal standard that has to be met by the city, the city has to show that there's either an actual or a potential disruption to their job duties by...

ZAHN: So let me get this straight.

TOOBIN: Sure.

ZAHN: So, an average citizen can parody something in society as long as it's not being racist when they work for a city agency that demands that they not be racist.

TOOBIN: Exactly. But it's just sort of common sense. I mean, can you imagine -- one of the witnesses at that trial was a firefighter who might potentially work with two of those firefighters. And he says, you know, if I'm running into a burning building -- he's a black lieutenant in the fire department. And he said, if I'm running into a burning building, how am I going to know that guys like this have my back? It's a good question. I don't see how you can possibly claim that as anything other than a firing offense.

ZAHN: Always delighted to have Jeffrey Toobin come on for "I Object!"

TOOBIN: I'm...

ZAHN: Fiercely...

TOOBIN: Fiercely...

ZAHN: Fiercely objecting this morning. Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com