Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Military Orders Review of How Sexual Abuse Allegations Handled
Aired February 19, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now we're going to move on to another story that's getting a lot of attention here. Is it a case of blame the victim at the Air Force Academy? That is the claim of five female cadets who say they were raped by classmates and then punished for reporting it. The military has ordered a review of how sexual abuse allegations are handled.
And Dorothy Mackey, a former Air Force captain, says she resigned her commission after she was raped. Mackey formed a group that tracks sexual assaults in the military and she has spoken with the alleged Academy victims.
She joins us this morning from Dayton, Ohio.
Good morning.
Thanks very much for being with us.
DOROTHY MACKEY, ADVOCATE FOR MILITARY SEXUAL-ABUSE VICTIMS: You're welcome.
Good morning.
ZAHN: You've had an opportunity to talk with five of the female cadets who say they were raped. How do they say their reports were handled?
MACKEY: Actually, I've talked to seven now and in every case they are telling me that they've been virtually intimidated by other cadets, threatened. They have, in fact, been told they're either being promiscuous or that if there was alcohol provided by upper level cadets that they are, in fact, being blamed for that, those issues.
ZAHN: So the blame is coming from everywhere, from fellow cadets and also from supervisors, you say?
MACKEY: Absolutely. Absolutely.
ZAHN: And is that pretty typical of what happened to you?
MACKEY: Yes. In fact, in my first five years of service I was raped three times. In my last year of service I was actually tag team assaulted by two individuals, one who was an Air Force Academy cadet graduate himself. And I couldn't find help inside the system, went outside the system to the Justice Department, who refused to help me. Ended up going to the Supreme Court and learning that there were five laws on the U.S. books that give immunity to U.S. military members who rape, maim, murder their own or others.
ZAHN: So what ended up being the status of your charges?
MACKEY: The individuals actually were given immunity under national security.
ZAHN: Let's come back to these cases now that have just publicly surfaced. We have Brigadier General Taco Gilbert, who is the officer who has direct command over the cadet wing at the Air Force Academy, telling us this today. "Allegations that sexual misconduct goes unpunished at the Air Force Academy are unfounded and untrue. Each case is evaluated on its own merits with a view toward respecting the best interests of the Air Force, the victim and the accused."
What does that mean to you?
MACKEY: Well, in all honesty, I mean I deal with rape and abuse across all the military services, the academies and such. I actually have a case currently going on in the United States Air Force with Sergeant Lisa Sparks from the Hanscom Air Force Base. It's a mirror image of what's going on in the Air Force Academy, in which she had been drinking with people that she'd been trusted and trained to trust with her life. She was then raped by two of them and right now she's actually up on charges, which potentially could put her in prison.
These are very standard, very typical type of cases.
ZAHN: Now, we mentioned in our introduction that there were five cases. You're now telling us this morning you've heard about seven cases at the Air Force Academy, right?
MACKEY: Yes. And it's not just with women. There have actually been male cadets who have been raped, as well, there.
ZAHN: Wow. Well, Air Force investigators are now saying they will review these cases individually.
Where do you expect those investigations to go?
MACKEY: Well, with all honesty, I've been doing this work for 19 years and in my 19 years, I've seen many task forces which virtually throw lots of money and put in little fixes. But they have not changed the issues. And part of that reason is because some of the internal criminal investigation services are there to dissuade and virtually void out rape victims coming forward, as well as the United States government. There is aspects of it that has been involved in the training of rape, murder and torture through the School of the Americas for over 50 years.
ZAHN: Senator John Warner...
MACKEY: So it's...
ZAHN: ... now is among the senators who's going to take on this interest or this story I guess, we're told pretty seriously.
Do you think that's going to make any difference?
MACKEY: I think if we do multiple things such as Senator Murray is also involved in it. I think that we need to do many things, from the beginning of providing outside, competent counselors for the victims, having an independent investigative agency look at the United States military claims of assaults, abuse and murder. We need an individual prosecutor outside of the system to bring in an investigation as well as outside competent authority figures and advocates who aren't going to simply be yes people for the system.
ZAHN: Dorothy Mackey, we're going to have to leave it there this morning.
Thank you very much for spending a little time with us this morning.
Appreciate it.
MACKEY: Thank you.
ZAHN: We're going to turn now to our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin for his perspective on all of this.
First of all, your reaction to what you just heard Ms. Mackey say.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's a two level problem here, both of which are difficult. One is the, it's an academic setting and that has always been an area where it's been difficult to prosecute people because of the date rape allegations...
ZAHN: Why?
TOOBIN: Because the defense often in these circumstances is consent and there are often only two people in the room and there's often alcohol involved and the legal system has never dealt especially well with those he said/she said cases. And in those cases, it usually winds up that the person winds up being let off.
ZAHN: Do you...
TOOBIN: So that's, but that's just one level.
ZAHN: OK, what's the other level?
TOOBIN: And the other is that it's military, which has an entirely separate judicial system, the whole court martial system, where women have frequently claimed that they have not been treated fairly. So when you have this double problem or double level of complexity, you can see why it's not surprising that there are complaints the system doesn't work well.
ZAHN: And Dorothy Mackey made it very clear that if you look at these laws pretty carefully, in the cases of most people, I guess she's saying, who assault these men or women at these military, what would you call them, not bases but in this case a military school... TOOBIN: Well, but they...
ZAHN: ... that they're granted immunity.
TOOBIN: I don't know. I'm not sure that's really -- I'd like to know more about that. I'm not sure that's really true. Rape is illegal. It's illegal on a military base. It's illegal on a college. It's completely illegal. Just because you're in the military, doesn't automatically mean you get immunity for this.
The problem is investigating them and getting proof that actual crimes were committed. But it is not true under any circumstances that rape is legal.
ZAHN: It sounds like you have a good assignment for the day, to go check out the immunity exclusions.
TOOBIN: It is quite a story.
ZAHN: Thanks, Jeff.
TOOBIN: I will check on that.
OK.
ZAHN: Appreciate your dropping by.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Handled>
Aired February 19, 2003 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Now we're going to move on to another story that's getting a lot of attention here. Is it a case of blame the victim at the Air Force Academy? That is the claim of five female cadets who say they were raped by classmates and then punished for reporting it. The military has ordered a review of how sexual abuse allegations are handled.
And Dorothy Mackey, a former Air Force captain, says she resigned her commission after she was raped. Mackey formed a group that tracks sexual assaults in the military and she has spoken with the alleged Academy victims.
She joins us this morning from Dayton, Ohio.
Good morning.
Thanks very much for being with us.
DOROTHY MACKEY, ADVOCATE FOR MILITARY SEXUAL-ABUSE VICTIMS: You're welcome.
Good morning.
ZAHN: You've had an opportunity to talk with five of the female cadets who say they were raped. How do they say their reports were handled?
MACKEY: Actually, I've talked to seven now and in every case they are telling me that they've been virtually intimidated by other cadets, threatened. They have, in fact, been told they're either being promiscuous or that if there was alcohol provided by upper level cadets that they are, in fact, being blamed for that, those issues.
ZAHN: So the blame is coming from everywhere, from fellow cadets and also from supervisors, you say?
MACKEY: Absolutely. Absolutely.
ZAHN: And is that pretty typical of what happened to you?
MACKEY: Yes. In fact, in my first five years of service I was raped three times. In my last year of service I was actually tag team assaulted by two individuals, one who was an Air Force Academy cadet graduate himself. And I couldn't find help inside the system, went outside the system to the Justice Department, who refused to help me. Ended up going to the Supreme Court and learning that there were five laws on the U.S. books that give immunity to U.S. military members who rape, maim, murder their own or others.
ZAHN: So what ended up being the status of your charges?
MACKEY: The individuals actually were given immunity under national security.
ZAHN: Let's come back to these cases now that have just publicly surfaced. We have Brigadier General Taco Gilbert, who is the officer who has direct command over the cadet wing at the Air Force Academy, telling us this today. "Allegations that sexual misconduct goes unpunished at the Air Force Academy are unfounded and untrue. Each case is evaluated on its own merits with a view toward respecting the best interests of the Air Force, the victim and the accused."
What does that mean to you?
MACKEY: Well, in all honesty, I mean I deal with rape and abuse across all the military services, the academies and such. I actually have a case currently going on in the United States Air Force with Sergeant Lisa Sparks from the Hanscom Air Force Base. It's a mirror image of what's going on in the Air Force Academy, in which she had been drinking with people that she'd been trusted and trained to trust with her life. She was then raped by two of them and right now she's actually up on charges, which potentially could put her in prison.
These are very standard, very typical type of cases.
ZAHN: Now, we mentioned in our introduction that there were five cases. You're now telling us this morning you've heard about seven cases at the Air Force Academy, right?
MACKEY: Yes. And it's not just with women. There have actually been male cadets who have been raped, as well, there.
ZAHN: Wow. Well, Air Force investigators are now saying they will review these cases individually.
Where do you expect those investigations to go?
MACKEY: Well, with all honesty, I've been doing this work for 19 years and in my 19 years, I've seen many task forces which virtually throw lots of money and put in little fixes. But they have not changed the issues. And part of that reason is because some of the internal criminal investigation services are there to dissuade and virtually void out rape victims coming forward, as well as the United States government. There is aspects of it that has been involved in the training of rape, murder and torture through the School of the Americas for over 50 years.
ZAHN: Senator John Warner...
MACKEY: So it's...
ZAHN: ... now is among the senators who's going to take on this interest or this story I guess, we're told pretty seriously.
Do you think that's going to make any difference?
MACKEY: I think if we do multiple things such as Senator Murray is also involved in it. I think that we need to do many things, from the beginning of providing outside, competent counselors for the victims, having an independent investigative agency look at the United States military claims of assaults, abuse and murder. We need an individual prosecutor outside of the system to bring in an investigation as well as outside competent authority figures and advocates who aren't going to simply be yes people for the system.
ZAHN: Dorothy Mackey, we're going to have to leave it there this morning.
Thank you very much for spending a little time with us this morning.
Appreciate it.
MACKEY: Thank you.
ZAHN: We're going to turn now to our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin for his perspective on all of this.
First of all, your reaction to what you just heard Ms. Mackey say.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's a two level problem here, both of which are difficult. One is the, it's an academic setting and that has always been an area where it's been difficult to prosecute people because of the date rape allegations...
ZAHN: Why?
TOOBIN: Because the defense often in these circumstances is consent and there are often only two people in the room and there's often alcohol involved and the legal system has never dealt especially well with those he said/she said cases. And in those cases, it usually winds up that the person winds up being let off.
ZAHN: Do you...
TOOBIN: So that's, but that's just one level.
ZAHN: OK, what's the other level?
TOOBIN: And the other is that it's military, which has an entirely separate judicial system, the whole court martial system, where women have frequently claimed that they have not been treated fairly. So when you have this double problem or double level of complexity, you can see why it's not surprising that there are complaints the system doesn't work well.
ZAHN: And Dorothy Mackey made it very clear that if you look at these laws pretty carefully, in the cases of most people, I guess she's saying, who assault these men or women at these military, what would you call them, not bases but in this case a military school... TOOBIN: Well, but they...
ZAHN: ... that they're granted immunity.
TOOBIN: I don't know. I'm not sure that's really -- I'd like to know more about that. I'm not sure that's really true. Rape is illegal. It's illegal on a military base. It's illegal on a college. It's completely illegal. Just because you're in the military, doesn't automatically mean you get immunity for this.
The problem is investigating them and getting proof that actual crimes were committed. But it is not true under any circumstances that rape is legal.
ZAHN: It sounds like you have a good assignment for the day, to go check out the immunity exclusions.
TOOBIN: It is quite a story.
ZAHN: Thanks, Jeff.
TOOBIN: I will check on that.
OK.
ZAHN: Appreciate your dropping by.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Handled>
