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American Morning

Would Enforcement of Local Laws Have Been Enough to Prevent Chicago, Rhode Island Tragedies?

Aired February 24, 2003 - 07:35   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Safety officials, meanwhile, from cities all around the country are cracking down on nightclubs in the wake of last week's two club tragedy. There is no national fire safety code.
Would enforcement of local laws have been enough to prevent the Chicago and Rhode Island tragedies?

Let's turn to Paul Wertheimer, who is an expert on crowd management, dealing with concert and musical festival safety issues.

He joins us this morning from Chicago.

Good morning.

Good of you to join us, sir.

PAUL WERTHEIMER, FOUNDER, CROWD MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES: Good morning. Thank you.

ZAHN: So is it a coincidence we had these two tragedies?

WERTHEIMER: No, it isn't. These have just been waiting to happen. Safety people have known for a long time concerts in nightclubs are extraordinarily dangerous places. They are full of violations -- overcrowding, standing room environments. It's a matter of Russian roulette. And it's not a coincidence from Chicago to Warwick, two different kinds of events, the same problems, basically.

ZAHN: What are the safety standards that aren't in place that should be?

WERTHEIMER: We need, first of all, I think to address these old venues or venues to make sure they're appropriate for the use that they're now being put to. Most old venues that have, for example, concerts in them, like The Station, weren't designed for that. While they might have had a number of exit ways, the question is were those exits where people could use them in case of emergency?

Another major issue is the standing room festival seating environment. In every community, standing room environments allow venues and promoters to pack more people into a space than they would if there were fixed seats. This is very dangerous. The buildings were not designed for this. We have to lower that capacity and we have to make sure, I think, from this point on, with new laws and regulations, that venues not designed for concerts are not used for concerts. ZAHN: So, Paul, what you're clearly saying, it is not just an issue of lack of uniform safety standards. There's also a huge issue of greed here.

WERTHEIMER: Absolutely. You know, safety does not have a problem with profit. But safety is in conflict with greed, and that's what we're seeing.

ZAHN: So what advice do you have for people who continue to frequent these kinds of clubs?

WERTHEIMER: Be very wary. Take a look at where the exits are. If you're in a standing room environment, you must be very careful. That's the most deadly concert environment in rock and roll's history, for example. Look for certain emergency equipment like fire extinguishers, emergency lighting. Just be aware of that. And, most importantly, if you see violations, if you think something's wrong, report them to your local fire officials or law enforcement. Put them on record that there is a problem so that these officials might be able to pay better attention to these venues throughout America.

ZAHN: In the meantime you say overcrowding probably is the single biggest problem confronting these clubs. What percentage of these clubs do you think bring in more people than they're allowed to?

WERTHEIMER: Well, in my opinion all standing room environments do because there is a loophole in the laws for general admission or standing room environments that for some reason allows you to put more people in than if you were fixed seats. You know, the whole idea of sitting down is that the fire department is able to create, establish emergency aisle ways that funnel people out quickly. It also prevents promoters and organizers from overcrowding because there has to be a seat for somebody. Everybody has to have a seat.

But with standing room environments, you can pack a venue. A fire marshal, even if he shows up, will have a hard time to determine how many people are in the venue. And, of course, there's great profit in this.

ZAHN: Paul Wertheimer, thank you for your perspective.

Thank you for informing us this morning.

WERTHEIMER: You're welcome. Thank you.

ZAHN: We really appreciate your dropping by.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Prevent Chicago, Rhode Island Tragedies?>


Aired February 24, 2003 - 07:35   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Safety officials, meanwhile, from cities all around the country are cracking down on nightclubs in the wake of last week's two club tragedy. There is no national fire safety code.
Would enforcement of local laws have been enough to prevent the Chicago and Rhode Island tragedies?

Let's turn to Paul Wertheimer, who is an expert on crowd management, dealing with concert and musical festival safety issues.

He joins us this morning from Chicago.

Good morning.

Good of you to join us, sir.

PAUL WERTHEIMER, FOUNDER, CROWD MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES: Good morning. Thank you.

ZAHN: So is it a coincidence we had these two tragedies?

WERTHEIMER: No, it isn't. These have just been waiting to happen. Safety people have known for a long time concerts in nightclubs are extraordinarily dangerous places. They are full of violations -- overcrowding, standing room environments. It's a matter of Russian roulette. And it's not a coincidence from Chicago to Warwick, two different kinds of events, the same problems, basically.

ZAHN: What are the safety standards that aren't in place that should be?

WERTHEIMER: We need, first of all, I think to address these old venues or venues to make sure they're appropriate for the use that they're now being put to. Most old venues that have, for example, concerts in them, like The Station, weren't designed for that. While they might have had a number of exit ways, the question is were those exits where people could use them in case of emergency?

Another major issue is the standing room festival seating environment. In every community, standing room environments allow venues and promoters to pack more people into a space than they would if there were fixed seats. This is very dangerous. The buildings were not designed for this. We have to lower that capacity and we have to make sure, I think, from this point on, with new laws and regulations, that venues not designed for concerts are not used for concerts. ZAHN: So, Paul, what you're clearly saying, it is not just an issue of lack of uniform safety standards. There's also a huge issue of greed here.

WERTHEIMER: Absolutely. You know, safety does not have a problem with profit. But safety is in conflict with greed, and that's what we're seeing.

ZAHN: So what advice do you have for people who continue to frequent these kinds of clubs?

WERTHEIMER: Be very wary. Take a look at where the exits are. If you're in a standing room environment, you must be very careful. That's the most deadly concert environment in rock and roll's history, for example. Look for certain emergency equipment like fire extinguishers, emergency lighting. Just be aware of that. And, most importantly, if you see violations, if you think something's wrong, report them to your local fire officials or law enforcement. Put them on record that there is a problem so that these officials might be able to pay better attention to these venues throughout America.

ZAHN: In the meantime you say overcrowding probably is the single biggest problem confronting these clubs. What percentage of these clubs do you think bring in more people than they're allowed to?

WERTHEIMER: Well, in my opinion all standing room environments do because there is a loophole in the laws for general admission or standing room environments that for some reason allows you to put more people in than if you were fixed seats. You know, the whole idea of sitting down is that the fire department is able to create, establish emergency aisle ways that funnel people out quickly. It also prevents promoters and organizers from overcrowding because there has to be a seat for somebody. Everybody has to have a seat.

But with standing room environments, you can pack a venue. A fire marshal, even if he shows up, will have a hard time to determine how many people are in the venue. And, of course, there's great profit in this.

ZAHN: Paul Wertheimer, thank you for your perspective.

Thank you for informing us this morning.

WERTHEIMER: You're welcome. Thank you.

ZAHN: We really appreciate your dropping by.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Prevent Chicago, Rhode Island Tragedies?>