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American Morning
War in Iraq
Aired March 23, 2003 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, welcome. I'm Paula Zahn. As Leon just mentioned, Iraqis are searching in Baghdad in the Tigris River that winds through Baghdad perhaps for a downed coalition pilot or pilots. This breaking news from the Pentagon. The Pentagon now telling us this morning that coalition aircraft are accounted for. And what it is, the Iraqis are shooting in the river for, we're not clear. It could have possibly be part of an elaborate performance, then to spread Iraqi disinformation, a time when the Iraqi vice president came out and said shortly on Iraqi TV, "We will see some American prisoners of war." But once again, this little fire fight lasted for at least over five minutes, as we witnessed on TV here at the top of the hour.
Not only is Al Jazeera and Abu Dhabi TV reporting it, but the Associated Press as well. We will keep our eye on this part of the banks of the Tigris River to keep you posted. Meantime, a fierce fight overnight between Marines and Iraqi troops near the port of Umm Qasr. We watched the battle unfold as U.S. Marines try to mop up pockets of resistance. It ended with coalition air strikes and Marines taking some Iraqi prisoners.
Right now, we go back to Bill in Kuwait. Bill, I wanted to add something, too that, we also learned from the vice president this morning. When asked about the status of Saddam Hussein, he denied that he had been injured in the attacks four days ago. He said "I think for the past four days you have seen the president on television. You have seen the president more than once." That's the latest word coming from the Iraqis this morning -- Bill?
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Paula, we have seen that clip every day now. It has not been a whole lot of videotape, but it has been present at least on a 24 hour basis. And we've seen them in different locations, too, not quite sure what that means, but those who have studied him and his regime certainly would be able to shed a lot more light on that.
Paula, just want to make mention yet again, you mentioned about the U.S. saying no coalition aircraft lost. RAF repeating that same word here in Kuwait, saying they have no coalition aircraft lost well. Perhaps we'll learn more. Major General Dan Leif's going to join us live here on CNN in a matter of moments. And we'll ask him about what he is hearing on the ground. We heard from him down the road here about last hour about the latest on what he has. And we'll get more from him in a moment.
All right but in the meantime, but quickly, developments around the region right now, word of a force of about 130 U.S. armored vehicles charging across the Iraqi desert, said to be within 100 miles south of Baghdad. AP reports the Infantry Division, 2nd Brigade, covered 228 miles in about 40 hours' time, taking up fighting positions ahead of all U.S. forces.
Walt Rogers, we heard from him a few moments ago, traveling with the third squadron of the 7th Cavalry, south central Iraq, says that that column and counter resistance from a battalion sized force. The 3-7th's commander says his unit now ahead of schedule, despite that encounter.
Iraq's information minister claims 77 civilians have been killed and 366 others are injured during the battle for Basra. That's Iraq's second largest city in the southeastern part of the country. He claims most of the injuries and all of the fatalities are a result of cluster bombs.
Meanwhile, getting word yet again today from a number of our embedded journalists, CNN's Alessio Vinci is embedded with the U.S. Marines. And we have yet to hear from Alessio by my account over the past week's time. It's the first time I believe Alessio's been able to check in. He's by telephone now.
I don't know where you are, Alessio. I don't know how much you can tell us, but hello and good afternoon to you.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.
What I can report to you at this time is that a number of U.S. Marines at this time have entered the southern city of Nasiriyah in the southwestern part of this country. Everything began early this morning when the columns of several thousand Marines advanced towards Nasiriyah and start there encountering some resistance from Iraqi forces.
Those Iraqi forces were earlier on ambush a military convoy carrying supplies to U.S. forces in this region. And as we drove by that ambush, the aftermath of that ambush, we saw several U.S. military vehicles that would put the holes in that windows and their flat tires, and obviously the prisoners of war had to be taken away really quickly before the Iraqi forces to do something to them.
We also saw Cobra helicopters flying overhead with the 20 millimeter machine guns, retaliating against that ambush. And we saw, according to U.S. commandos, three Iraqi tanks destroyed, five trucks and also three anti aircraft batteries. At this time, the U.S. Marines have slowly entered the central square of Nasiriyah. The town, as you can imagine, is totally isolated. There is a -- there has been a pre- fire fight just before the bridge across the Euphrates River, but that brief fire fight quickly ended with the U.S. advance towards the city.
Here in town, they're encountering mainly small arm fire resistance, but there is at least one report that we heard over the military radio that one of the armored vehicles with which the Marines are moving, they have been hit by a rocket propelled grenade. I did not see that myself, but that is what we heard on the military radio. Also, on that broadcast, we also heard that some of the Medivac teams in the area are also taking fire from the Iraqi side. The streets of Nasiriyah, as you can imagine, are virtually deserted, although I did happen to a couple of bystanders not involved in the fire fight. And from my point of view, at least where I stand right now, the -- I do hear some large fire exchange in the distance. This is a fairly large city, about 250,000 people. So you must understand that where I am right now here is with a small unit, a small platoon of Marines, but there are several thousand Marines involved in this military operation at this time.
And again, we see occasionally Cobra helicopters, Marine Cobra helicopters, flying overhead to try to provide some covers to the U.S. Marines here on the ground. Back to you.
HEMMER: Alessio, outside the military operation we're seeing, what are you hearing? What are you talking to the Iraqi people about as you move through these town on your way north?
VINCI: Bill, this is the first populated area that we have encountered ever since we crossed into Iraq three days ago. So we have had at this point no contact whatsoever with Iraqi civilians and then having seen some camel herders and some farmers in the desert. You must understand that the way we advance with the U.S. military here is by traveling with their own vehicle.
We are inside their vehicles. And therefore, if they don't stop, we cannot stop of course to talk with people. So far, we've had virtually no contact with Iraqi civilians at this point -- Bill.
HEMMER: I can understand that. Alessio, let me try one more thing here. We have heard from our embedded reporters, some times throughout the day, 24 hours a day. And oftentimes, you disappear for several days. You have been essentially underwater for quite some time. Is there any explanation that you can offer us and our viewers as to why?
VINCI: Well, Bill, it's -- the rules of the embedded reporters are quite (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in India. And they're left -- the final decision is left to individual commanders and how they feel comfortable about when and if and how they will allow you to report. Our commander felt that for the time being, especially since we were not involved in any particular battle, he wanted to keep the radio silent, I had to respect that choice. To be honest with you, this is the first battle that we are encountering. And yet again, we are now able to report perhaps the most significant development that involves this particular battalion of Marines that I'm covering -- Bill.
HEMMER: Well, listen, great to hear from you, Alessio. Stay safe out there, too. Alessio Vinci with the Marines again in the town of Nasiriyah, Southern Iraq. Paula?
ZAHN: Thanks so much, Bill. Back to try to figure out what it was that we saw at the top of the hour in Baghdad. If you joined us then, this is what you saw. It appeared to be dozens of Iraqi soldiers shooting into the Tigris River, we are told apparently because they think there was a downed pilot or two that went into the river. So far, a U.S. military official says it has no reports of an American plane downed over Baghdad. The British Royal Air Force also says it has no reports of coalition planes downed in Baghdad. Both said all planes were accounted for, which brings us to our question for our next guest, could this part of the disinformation campaign as the president of -- excuse me, vice president goes on TV and says shortly we will see some American prisoners paraded on Iraqi TV.
Let's turn to Ken Pollack, who joins us from our D.C. bureau today. He's with the Saban Center of Brookings Institution. Good morning, Ken. Can you make any sense of what it is we saw just about 30 minutes ago?
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, Paula, I wish I could give you a definitive answer, but it's tough when it's still early. On the one hand, the Iraqis are perfectly capable of staging this entire thing. They love political theater. I mean, remember, this is a regime that holds "elections" in which there's only man on the ballot. And most Iraqis believe that if you don't vote for that one man, horrible things happen to you and your family.
We've seen them do all kinds of crazy things over the years in an effort to try to influence public opinion, some horrible things. They've deliberately deprived people of food and medicine, so that they'll have horrible images to show on TV. I remember in the 1990s, the -- at one point in time, they disconnected all the cameras that the U.N. inspectors had mounted at suspect sites. And they told us that "wandering lunatic" who was off his medication had disconnected all those cameras.
So they're capable of just about anything. On the other hand, you know, you never know about these things. It is possible that they brought down a plane. Obviously, we need to wait and hear that from Centcom whether they actually have lost the plane. And as far as the five prisoners of war, well it's true, obviously Centcom is saying so far they think they have lost anyone. It is also important to remember that there is a possibility out there. We've got a lot of people working in Iraq right now beyond the conventional forces. We've got special forces teams out there. We've got CIA paramilitary teams. It's not beyond the realm of the possible that some of them may have been captured.
On the other hand, this may be the Iraqis coming up with a little bit more political theater. You could see them dress up a whole bunch of, you know, English speaking Iraqis or somebody else and stage them as prisoners, too. Anything is possible.
ZAHN: As we have reported all morning long that American and coalition forces have endured small pockets of resistance, as they head north towards Baghdad. Give us the broad view of where this campaign is at this hour.
POLLACK: Well, I think it's broadly going according to plan. Right now, the expectation was that the U.S. military wouldn't be encountering a great deal of resistance as it drove up to Baghdad. Saddam's plan was always to make his stand at Baghdad. He left only regular Army formations, demoralized units, badly equipped units, not very capable units out there. He probably didn't expect them to put up much of a fight. And U.S. intelligence didn't expect them to put up much of a fight.
What you're seeing, I think, is pretty much according to what U.S. intelligence predicted. Small units of Iraqis, Saddam's loyalists who would up a fight, but most of the Iraqi army, mostly melting away, either surrendering to U.S. forces or the vast majority simply throwing down their weapons and going home, which is a grand tradition in the Iraqi armed forces.
There are, obviously, a lot of things going on that are beyond what we're seeing though. We should always keep that in mind. And just one example out there, right now, the U.S. Air Force is engaged in a very heavy campaign against the Republican Guards. They're trying to soften up those divisions, trying hope that when the U.S. Army gets up to Baghdad, the Republican Guards won't want to fight.
And of course, we're not getting any information about how those Republican Guard units are doing, whether they're really being affected by the bombing or whether as in 1991, they're pretty much shrugging it off. That could be a very important element in determining when we get to Baghdad, when the Marines in the Army get to Baghdad, and whether or not those Republican Guard divisions are willing to put up a fight.
ZAHN: I think you've just raised a very important issue. And it's something that Secretary Rumsfeld commented on the other day when he said what we're watching unfold on live television is really not the war on Iraq, but a sliver of the war. Let's talk about what we might see in the says to come, particularly in Baghdad, we've been watching this -- well actually, several columns of black smoke rising from the city, although there's been no confirmation of this. Even the generals in the know somehow on our staff believe it might have something to do with the Iraqis setting pools of oil on fire to somehow obscure some of the laser guided weapons that may be coming their way. Apparently, this does not affect the satellite guided weapons.
Tell us a little bit more about what the Iraqis might try?
POLLACK: Well, honestly Paula, I think the -- one of the most interesting developments today, and potentially troublesome for the days ahead was Walt Rodgers reporting that the Iraqis were using their own civilian population to shield their military forces against the advancing U.S. troops.
That's something that we were all very afraid of. Obviously, it's one of the great paradoxes, unfortunate ironies, of this whole campaign is that you U.S. forces care more about the safety and security of Iraq's population than does Saddam Hussein and his minions. And there was a great deal of concern that when the U.S. forces did reach Baghdad, Saddam, the Republican Guard, the special Republican Guard would use the five million citizens of Baghdad as hostages, as human shields to protect themselves against the U.S. military forces. The developments that Walt Rodgers is reporting, they're pretty ominous. They suggest that we might encounter more of that when we get up to Baghdad. In addition, there is, as I said before, still the $64,000 question out there. How hard will the Republican Guard be willing to fight? If they're willing to fight hard, if they're willing to fight in the built up area of Baghdad, if they're willing to use Iraq's civilian population as human shields, and if they're willing to use weapons of mass destruction, the battle for Baghdad could get pretty messy.
ZAHN: Ken Pollack, if you wouldn't mind, please hang with us throughout the morning. There are a lot of questions we'd like to send your way. Thanks so much for your insights this morning.
POLLACK: Sounds good, Paula.
ZAHN: Of course, Bill, another one of those $64,000 questions is where is Saddam Hussein? Is he still alive? Bill, the Iraqi vice president saying earlier today that we have seen him several times since the beginning of the SHOCK AND AWE campaign and that he is alive, that he is not injured. That from the Iraqis.
HEMMER: Yes, and...
ZAHN: And confirmation from the Americans, you know, remember yesterday the head of the Central Command said we don't know whether he's alive or dead, but even if he were dead, this campaign would continue.
HEMMER: Yes. Yes, and there was also word from Baghdad yesterday that said Saddam Hussein is satisfied, to use the word the Iraqis are using, satisfied with the performance of his own army right now. Paula, in a moment, we're going to update all of our stories right now. Throughout the entire region, there's a lot to keep track of as one could imagine at home.
But before we get to that, I want to check with Bob Franken embedded with the Air Force. Two issues to talk about here. One, this report about a Patriot missile battle hitting an RAF or Royal Air Force Jet en route from Iraq back to Kuwait. And also, this report that Iraqis are saying right now is the possibility of POWs downed in Baghdad.
Bob, hello again. Good afternoon.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon. Let's take the last one first, Bill. This base has no word beyond what we've heard from the United States, the administration and the British, saying that there's no word of any -- knowledge of any -- for somebody's who's down. I would point out that at this particular base, which is located near the Iraq-Kuwaiti border, most of the missions, the great majority of the missions have been in areas besides Baghdad, just about the rest of the country. A lot of them having to do with supporting the ground troops. So there is a good possibility that there would be no first hand knowledge at this base about whether the Iraq report is true, although those who've responded to it have responded to it as you might imagine, skeptically.
Now as for the shooting down of the Royal Air Force pilot, we have all kinds of classified information involved here that we are not allowed to tell you, but let me at least have you go through this. The British plane was shot down, although there are Royal Air Force planes that operate from here, there is no word that that plane came from this base.
But the rescue units who fly HH-60s, it's a modified version of the Blackhawk, this is what the people here call Cezart (ph), a combat air search and rescue. They were sent out and spent the day scouring for the pilot of the British plane. They're told anyway that that is the possibility. They, however, were diverted from that mission. We have no knowledge whether in fact they were successful or whether somebody else took it over.
They went to a second mission. We're told by the people who were involved in that mission that although they came under small arms fire when they hit the ground, they succeeded in what they were doing. Then they went to a third. And it's totally unclear what the result of with that mission. So it's been a very busy day for the search and rescue people. There is some indication, if you put together the time that the British plane went down, with the time that the search and rescue people were called out, which was about 4:30 in the morning, which is 8:30 last night Eastern time, that pretty much jibes with the time that the British pilot went down and perhaps they were involved in that mission, but we can't report that because we don't official word. It is mission that is still considered classified -- Bill?
HEMMER: Yes, Bob, and you were listening to Dan Lief (ph), the major general about an hour and a half ago, talking about the number of aircraft involved in this, the number of bases as well. It could be a massive task right now in trying to cull together all of this information. How are you getting yours where you are there, on the Iraqi-Kuwait border?
FRANKEN: Trying -- we get official information. There is a briefing everyday that is conducted by the ring commander, Colonel Tom Jones, in which basically, all he announces, all he announces is the number of sorties the day before. By the way that number is 296 now, up from 250. It's been steadily going upward with every indication it's going to continue to increase in intensity.
But the information that the Air Force is putting out is for the most part putting out extremely reluctantly, even compared to the other services.
HEMMER: Huh, interesting. Okay, Bob, thanks. Bob Franken embedded with the U.S. Air Force. And we will certainly check in as events warrant. Two things to keep a close on, and we will here in the region.
Paula, again, to you in New York.
ZAHN: Thanks so much, Bill. Maybe a little bit later on this morning, we'll have a chance to talk. We've been very busy here indeed. Time now for our war alert, a look at what has happened overnight.
At 12:38 a.m. Eastern time, the Army confirms one soldier is dead, a dozen injured in a grenade attack inside Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait. The Army is holding a U.S. soldier for questioning in the attack. 1:54 a.m. Eastern time, 9:54 in Iraq, fighting flares, as coalition forces try to take over a pocket of resistance in the port of Umm Qasr.
Later, a British reporter on the scene says the Republican Guard commander there has surrendered. 2:48 a.m. Eastern time, the British Defense Ministry announces that a missing Royal Air Force plane may have been shot down by a U.S Patriot missile battery. 3:33 a.m., Walt Rodgers traveling with the 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry reports that a towering plume of smoke near the convoy is the result of coalition forces blowing up a large Iraq ammunition dump. The 3-7 also captured three Iraqi troops traveling in a pink pick-up truck, which by the way, had an NYPD sticker on it.
3:53 a.m., Christiane Amanpour reports some Iraqi oil wells are burning. But the more important separation pumps are all intact. And the Ramailah oil fields are in control.
Then at 7:00 a.m. this morning, this is what we saw unfold on live television. Iraqi soldiers firing into the Tigris River, apparently they tell us or what news sources have told us was in an attempt to shot at coalition, down coalition pilots. Right now, the U.S. military is telling us there is no reports of a plane downed over Baghdad. The British Royal Air Force also says it has no reports of coalition planes down in Baghdad. Both said all planes were accounted for, nevertheless, the Iraqis were shooting at something. And at one point, we saw small fishing vessels criss-cross the Tigris in search for whatever it was they were targeting.
Bill, we should also mention that some people believe this could have been a real dramatic show, that the Iraqis are putting on to add to the import of what the Iraqi vice president told us earlier this morning, that soon we will see paraded on Iraqi television some American prisoners of war. So we'll see. It didn't surprise our experts this morning though if this is all part of an elaborate setup -- Bill?
HEMMER: Yes, you know, Paula, I think about the first -- go ahead, I'll take it. The first Persian, thanks, the Persian Gulf War 12 years ago, and even if you think about the no-fly zones, about essentially in place for the better part of the past decade, there have been oftentimes reports out of Baghdad that coalition aircraft have been down and quickly, the Pentagon had to react to this and essentially shoot it down, for lack of a better phrase, than the fact that it was not true.
Now we are hearing right now that there are no accounts right now of any missing coalition aircraft, but I thought it was interesting, just looking for the wires a short time ago, a Reuters is quoting a spokesperson for the United States Air Force as saying that he's not confirming or denying it, but he has no reports right now of anything down. And listen, what all this means is quite unknown right now. I'm probably pushing a little further than I should right now in terms of speculation, but the RAF and the U.S. are both saying that no coalition aircraft are unaccounted for.
Now we're hearing again from Barbara Starr, yet again thanks, Ted, in my ear, that Barbara Starr reiterates that yet again today. The Pentagon is saying nothing that can account for any missing aircraft at this point. So we will follow that.
I want to let you know also about an event here that happened in Kuwait outside in the desert today. 1:30 a.m. overnight, a U.S. soldier is dead, a member of the 101st Airborne Division. A fellow soldier, also a member of that unit being held now as a suspect. We will have a closer look at that coming up here in a moment.
Also, a coalition spearhead about halfway to the Iraqi capital. We'll be tracking that and much more in the next hour of our continuous war coverage. It is Sunday, Paula, and there is a myriad of events to keep track of you. Back to you now in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: ...Saddam Hussein is. Yesterday, General Tommy Franks says he doesn't really know whether he's dead or alive, but the campaign will continue even if he isn't dead. The air campaign over Baghdad was meant to erode and destroy the Iraqi president's ability to rule the country. So is the leader still in control? David Ensor takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With another tape of Saddam Hussein, Iraqi television sought to emphasize that he remains alive and in control. True or not, U.S. intelligence and military leaders say it matters less and less.
GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: I don't know if he's alive or not. But interestingly, the way we're undertaking this military operation it would not be changed irrespective of the location or the life of this one man.
ENSOR: U.S. intelligence officials say communications from the Iraqi leadership are dramatically down since the first airstrikes of the war, including the one that targeted his compound, suggesting to some Saddam is probably alive and most worried about staying that way.
POLLACK: He doesn't know if it was a human who betrayed him or it was a technical system that betrayed him. And so as a result, his MO is always go to ground, go into hiding, rely only on your trusted emissaries.
ENSOR: Besides tracking Iraqi leaders, U.S. intelligence officials say they have several key goals now, to protect and help U.S. troops, to negotiate surrenders and stand downs of Iraqi units, to watch Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. And not only to keep those weapons from being used against American soldiers. POLLACK: One of the great concerns that the administration has is that in the collapse of the regime, you may have individuals who will take some of the weapons of mass destruction and transfer them to other countries or to terrorist groups.
ENSOR: The U.S. military dealt with one such group Friday, bombing the Northern Iraqi enclave held by Ansar Al-Islam, a fundamentalist group the U.S. says has ties to al Qaeda. Special forces and U.S. intelligence moved in after the bombs.
(on camera): Though publicly, U.S. officials are playing down the importance of this point of Saddam Hussein, they would still very much like to get him. Analysts argue if he dies, the regime could quickly come apart at the seams, potentially saving many lives. American, Iraqi, British, and others.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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Aired March 23, 2003 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, welcome. I'm Paula Zahn. As Leon just mentioned, Iraqis are searching in Baghdad in the Tigris River that winds through Baghdad perhaps for a downed coalition pilot or pilots. This breaking news from the Pentagon. The Pentagon now telling us this morning that coalition aircraft are accounted for. And what it is, the Iraqis are shooting in the river for, we're not clear. It could have possibly be part of an elaborate performance, then to spread Iraqi disinformation, a time when the Iraqi vice president came out and said shortly on Iraqi TV, "We will see some American prisoners of war." But once again, this little fire fight lasted for at least over five minutes, as we witnessed on TV here at the top of the hour.
Not only is Al Jazeera and Abu Dhabi TV reporting it, but the Associated Press as well. We will keep our eye on this part of the banks of the Tigris River to keep you posted. Meantime, a fierce fight overnight between Marines and Iraqi troops near the port of Umm Qasr. We watched the battle unfold as U.S. Marines try to mop up pockets of resistance. It ended with coalition air strikes and Marines taking some Iraqi prisoners.
Right now, we go back to Bill in Kuwait. Bill, I wanted to add something, too that, we also learned from the vice president this morning. When asked about the status of Saddam Hussein, he denied that he had been injured in the attacks four days ago. He said "I think for the past four days you have seen the president on television. You have seen the president more than once." That's the latest word coming from the Iraqis this morning -- Bill?
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Paula, we have seen that clip every day now. It has not been a whole lot of videotape, but it has been present at least on a 24 hour basis. And we've seen them in different locations, too, not quite sure what that means, but those who have studied him and his regime certainly would be able to shed a lot more light on that.
Paula, just want to make mention yet again, you mentioned about the U.S. saying no coalition aircraft lost. RAF repeating that same word here in Kuwait, saying they have no coalition aircraft lost well. Perhaps we'll learn more. Major General Dan Leif's going to join us live here on CNN in a matter of moments. And we'll ask him about what he is hearing on the ground. We heard from him down the road here about last hour about the latest on what he has. And we'll get more from him in a moment.
All right but in the meantime, but quickly, developments around the region right now, word of a force of about 130 U.S. armored vehicles charging across the Iraqi desert, said to be within 100 miles south of Baghdad. AP reports the Infantry Division, 2nd Brigade, covered 228 miles in about 40 hours' time, taking up fighting positions ahead of all U.S. forces.
Walt Rogers, we heard from him a few moments ago, traveling with the third squadron of the 7th Cavalry, south central Iraq, says that that column and counter resistance from a battalion sized force. The 3-7th's commander says his unit now ahead of schedule, despite that encounter.
Iraq's information minister claims 77 civilians have been killed and 366 others are injured during the battle for Basra. That's Iraq's second largest city in the southeastern part of the country. He claims most of the injuries and all of the fatalities are a result of cluster bombs.
Meanwhile, getting word yet again today from a number of our embedded journalists, CNN's Alessio Vinci is embedded with the U.S. Marines. And we have yet to hear from Alessio by my account over the past week's time. It's the first time I believe Alessio's been able to check in. He's by telephone now.
I don't know where you are, Alessio. I don't know how much you can tell us, but hello and good afternoon to you.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.
What I can report to you at this time is that a number of U.S. Marines at this time have entered the southern city of Nasiriyah in the southwestern part of this country. Everything began early this morning when the columns of several thousand Marines advanced towards Nasiriyah and start there encountering some resistance from Iraqi forces.
Those Iraqi forces were earlier on ambush a military convoy carrying supplies to U.S. forces in this region. And as we drove by that ambush, the aftermath of that ambush, we saw several U.S. military vehicles that would put the holes in that windows and their flat tires, and obviously the prisoners of war had to be taken away really quickly before the Iraqi forces to do something to them.
We also saw Cobra helicopters flying overhead with the 20 millimeter machine guns, retaliating against that ambush. And we saw, according to U.S. commandos, three Iraqi tanks destroyed, five trucks and also three anti aircraft batteries. At this time, the U.S. Marines have slowly entered the central square of Nasiriyah. The town, as you can imagine, is totally isolated. There is a -- there has been a pre- fire fight just before the bridge across the Euphrates River, but that brief fire fight quickly ended with the U.S. advance towards the city.
Here in town, they're encountering mainly small arm fire resistance, but there is at least one report that we heard over the military radio that one of the armored vehicles with which the Marines are moving, they have been hit by a rocket propelled grenade. I did not see that myself, but that is what we heard on the military radio. Also, on that broadcast, we also heard that some of the Medivac teams in the area are also taking fire from the Iraqi side. The streets of Nasiriyah, as you can imagine, are virtually deserted, although I did happen to a couple of bystanders not involved in the fire fight. And from my point of view, at least where I stand right now, the -- I do hear some large fire exchange in the distance. This is a fairly large city, about 250,000 people. So you must understand that where I am right now here is with a small unit, a small platoon of Marines, but there are several thousand Marines involved in this military operation at this time.
And again, we see occasionally Cobra helicopters, Marine Cobra helicopters, flying overhead to try to provide some covers to the U.S. Marines here on the ground. Back to you.
HEMMER: Alessio, outside the military operation we're seeing, what are you hearing? What are you talking to the Iraqi people about as you move through these town on your way north?
VINCI: Bill, this is the first populated area that we have encountered ever since we crossed into Iraq three days ago. So we have had at this point no contact whatsoever with Iraqi civilians and then having seen some camel herders and some farmers in the desert. You must understand that the way we advance with the U.S. military here is by traveling with their own vehicle.
We are inside their vehicles. And therefore, if they don't stop, we cannot stop of course to talk with people. So far, we've had virtually no contact with Iraqi civilians at this point -- Bill.
HEMMER: I can understand that. Alessio, let me try one more thing here. We have heard from our embedded reporters, some times throughout the day, 24 hours a day. And oftentimes, you disappear for several days. You have been essentially underwater for quite some time. Is there any explanation that you can offer us and our viewers as to why?
VINCI: Well, Bill, it's -- the rules of the embedded reporters are quite (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in India. And they're left -- the final decision is left to individual commanders and how they feel comfortable about when and if and how they will allow you to report. Our commander felt that for the time being, especially since we were not involved in any particular battle, he wanted to keep the radio silent, I had to respect that choice. To be honest with you, this is the first battle that we are encountering. And yet again, we are now able to report perhaps the most significant development that involves this particular battalion of Marines that I'm covering -- Bill.
HEMMER: Well, listen, great to hear from you, Alessio. Stay safe out there, too. Alessio Vinci with the Marines again in the town of Nasiriyah, Southern Iraq. Paula?
ZAHN: Thanks so much, Bill. Back to try to figure out what it was that we saw at the top of the hour in Baghdad. If you joined us then, this is what you saw. It appeared to be dozens of Iraqi soldiers shooting into the Tigris River, we are told apparently because they think there was a downed pilot or two that went into the river. So far, a U.S. military official says it has no reports of an American plane downed over Baghdad. The British Royal Air Force also says it has no reports of coalition planes downed in Baghdad. Both said all planes were accounted for, which brings us to our question for our next guest, could this part of the disinformation campaign as the president of -- excuse me, vice president goes on TV and says shortly we will see some American prisoners paraded on Iraqi TV.
Let's turn to Ken Pollack, who joins us from our D.C. bureau today. He's with the Saban Center of Brookings Institution. Good morning, Ken. Can you make any sense of what it is we saw just about 30 minutes ago?
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, Paula, I wish I could give you a definitive answer, but it's tough when it's still early. On the one hand, the Iraqis are perfectly capable of staging this entire thing. They love political theater. I mean, remember, this is a regime that holds "elections" in which there's only man on the ballot. And most Iraqis believe that if you don't vote for that one man, horrible things happen to you and your family.
We've seen them do all kinds of crazy things over the years in an effort to try to influence public opinion, some horrible things. They've deliberately deprived people of food and medicine, so that they'll have horrible images to show on TV. I remember in the 1990s, the -- at one point in time, they disconnected all the cameras that the U.N. inspectors had mounted at suspect sites. And they told us that "wandering lunatic" who was off his medication had disconnected all those cameras.
So they're capable of just about anything. On the other hand, you know, you never know about these things. It is possible that they brought down a plane. Obviously, we need to wait and hear that from Centcom whether they actually have lost the plane. And as far as the five prisoners of war, well it's true, obviously Centcom is saying so far they think they have lost anyone. It is also important to remember that there is a possibility out there. We've got a lot of people working in Iraq right now beyond the conventional forces. We've got special forces teams out there. We've got CIA paramilitary teams. It's not beyond the realm of the possible that some of them may have been captured.
On the other hand, this may be the Iraqis coming up with a little bit more political theater. You could see them dress up a whole bunch of, you know, English speaking Iraqis or somebody else and stage them as prisoners, too. Anything is possible.
ZAHN: As we have reported all morning long that American and coalition forces have endured small pockets of resistance, as they head north towards Baghdad. Give us the broad view of where this campaign is at this hour.
POLLACK: Well, I think it's broadly going according to plan. Right now, the expectation was that the U.S. military wouldn't be encountering a great deal of resistance as it drove up to Baghdad. Saddam's plan was always to make his stand at Baghdad. He left only regular Army formations, demoralized units, badly equipped units, not very capable units out there. He probably didn't expect them to put up much of a fight. And U.S. intelligence didn't expect them to put up much of a fight.
What you're seeing, I think, is pretty much according to what U.S. intelligence predicted. Small units of Iraqis, Saddam's loyalists who would up a fight, but most of the Iraqi army, mostly melting away, either surrendering to U.S. forces or the vast majority simply throwing down their weapons and going home, which is a grand tradition in the Iraqi armed forces.
There are, obviously, a lot of things going on that are beyond what we're seeing though. We should always keep that in mind. And just one example out there, right now, the U.S. Air Force is engaged in a very heavy campaign against the Republican Guards. They're trying to soften up those divisions, trying hope that when the U.S. Army gets up to Baghdad, the Republican Guards won't want to fight.
And of course, we're not getting any information about how those Republican Guard units are doing, whether they're really being affected by the bombing or whether as in 1991, they're pretty much shrugging it off. That could be a very important element in determining when we get to Baghdad, when the Marines in the Army get to Baghdad, and whether or not those Republican Guard divisions are willing to put up a fight.
ZAHN: I think you've just raised a very important issue. And it's something that Secretary Rumsfeld commented on the other day when he said what we're watching unfold on live television is really not the war on Iraq, but a sliver of the war. Let's talk about what we might see in the says to come, particularly in Baghdad, we've been watching this -- well actually, several columns of black smoke rising from the city, although there's been no confirmation of this. Even the generals in the know somehow on our staff believe it might have something to do with the Iraqis setting pools of oil on fire to somehow obscure some of the laser guided weapons that may be coming their way. Apparently, this does not affect the satellite guided weapons.
Tell us a little bit more about what the Iraqis might try?
POLLACK: Well, honestly Paula, I think the -- one of the most interesting developments today, and potentially troublesome for the days ahead was Walt Rodgers reporting that the Iraqis were using their own civilian population to shield their military forces against the advancing U.S. troops.
That's something that we were all very afraid of. Obviously, it's one of the great paradoxes, unfortunate ironies, of this whole campaign is that you U.S. forces care more about the safety and security of Iraq's population than does Saddam Hussein and his minions. And there was a great deal of concern that when the U.S. forces did reach Baghdad, Saddam, the Republican Guard, the special Republican Guard would use the five million citizens of Baghdad as hostages, as human shields to protect themselves against the U.S. military forces. The developments that Walt Rodgers is reporting, they're pretty ominous. They suggest that we might encounter more of that when we get up to Baghdad. In addition, there is, as I said before, still the $64,000 question out there. How hard will the Republican Guard be willing to fight? If they're willing to fight hard, if they're willing to fight in the built up area of Baghdad, if they're willing to use Iraq's civilian population as human shields, and if they're willing to use weapons of mass destruction, the battle for Baghdad could get pretty messy.
ZAHN: Ken Pollack, if you wouldn't mind, please hang with us throughout the morning. There are a lot of questions we'd like to send your way. Thanks so much for your insights this morning.
POLLACK: Sounds good, Paula.
ZAHN: Of course, Bill, another one of those $64,000 questions is where is Saddam Hussein? Is he still alive? Bill, the Iraqi vice president saying earlier today that we have seen him several times since the beginning of the SHOCK AND AWE campaign and that he is alive, that he is not injured. That from the Iraqis.
HEMMER: Yes, and...
ZAHN: And confirmation from the Americans, you know, remember yesterday the head of the Central Command said we don't know whether he's alive or dead, but even if he were dead, this campaign would continue.
HEMMER: Yes. Yes, and there was also word from Baghdad yesterday that said Saddam Hussein is satisfied, to use the word the Iraqis are using, satisfied with the performance of his own army right now. Paula, in a moment, we're going to update all of our stories right now. Throughout the entire region, there's a lot to keep track of as one could imagine at home.
But before we get to that, I want to check with Bob Franken embedded with the Air Force. Two issues to talk about here. One, this report about a Patriot missile battle hitting an RAF or Royal Air Force Jet en route from Iraq back to Kuwait. And also, this report that Iraqis are saying right now is the possibility of POWs downed in Baghdad.
Bob, hello again. Good afternoon.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon. Let's take the last one first, Bill. This base has no word beyond what we've heard from the United States, the administration and the British, saying that there's no word of any -- knowledge of any -- for somebody's who's down. I would point out that at this particular base, which is located near the Iraq-Kuwaiti border, most of the missions, the great majority of the missions have been in areas besides Baghdad, just about the rest of the country. A lot of them having to do with supporting the ground troops. So there is a good possibility that there would be no first hand knowledge at this base about whether the Iraq report is true, although those who've responded to it have responded to it as you might imagine, skeptically.
Now as for the shooting down of the Royal Air Force pilot, we have all kinds of classified information involved here that we are not allowed to tell you, but let me at least have you go through this. The British plane was shot down, although there are Royal Air Force planes that operate from here, there is no word that that plane came from this base.
But the rescue units who fly HH-60s, it's a modified version of the Blackhawk, this is what the people here call Cezart (ph), a combat air search and rescue. They were sent out and spent the day scouring for the pilot of the British plane. They're told anyway that that is the possibility. They, however, were diverted from that mission. We have no knowledge whether in fact they were successful or whether somebody else took it over.
They went to a second mission. We're told by the people who were involved in that mission that although they came under small arms fire when they hit the ground, they succeeded in what they were doing. Then they went to a third. And it's totally unclear what the result of with that mission. So it's been a very busy day for the search and rescue people. There is some indication, if you put together the time that the British plane went down, with the time that the search and rescue people were called out, which was about 4:30 in the morning, which is 8:30 last night Eastern time, that pretty much jibes with the time that the British pilot went down and perhaps they were involved in that mission, but we can't report that because we don't official word. It is mission that is still considered classified -- Bill?
HEMMER: Yes, Bob, and you were listening to Dan Lief (ph), the major general about an hour and a half ago, talking about the number of aircraft involved in this, the number of bases as well. It could be a massive task right now in trying to cull together all of this information. How are you getting yours where you are there, on the Iraqi-Kuwait border?
FRANKEN: Trying -- we get official information. There is a briefing everyday that is conducted by the ring commander, Colonel Tom Jones, in which basically, all he announces, all he announces is the number of sorties the day before. By the way that number is 296 now, up from 250. It's been steadily going upward with every indication it's going to continue to increase in intensity.
But the information that the Air Force is putting out is for the most part putting out extremely reluctantly, even compared to the other services.
HEMMER: Huh, interesting. Okay, Bob, thanks. Bob Franken embedded with the U.S. Air Force. And we will certainly check in as events warrant. Two things to keep a close on, and we will here in the region.
Paula, again, to you in New York.
ZAHN: Thanks so much, Bill. Maybe a little bit later on this morning, we'll have a chance to talk. We've been very busy here indeed. Time now for our war alert, a look at what has happened overnight.
At 12:38 a.m. Eastern time, the Army confirms one soldier is dead, a dozen injured in a grenade attack inside Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait. The Army is holding a U.S. soldier for questioning in the attack. 1:54 a.m. Eastern time, 9:54 in Iraq, fighting flares, as coalition forces try to take over a pocket of resistance in the port of Umm Qasr.
Later, a British reporter on the scene says the Republican Guard commander there has surrendered. 2:48 a.m. Eastern time, the British Defense Ministry announces that a missing Royal Air Force plane may have been shot down by a U.S Patriot missile battery. 3:33 a.m., Walt Rodgers traveling with the 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry reports that a towering plume of smoke near the convoy is the result of coalition forces blowing up a large Iraq ammunition dump. The 3-7 also captured three Iraqi troops traveling in a pink pick-up truck, which by the way, had an NYPD sticker on it.
3:53 a.m., Christiane Amanpour reports some Iraqi oil wells are burning. But the more important separation pumps are all intact. And the Ramailah oil fields are in control.
Then at 7:00 a.m. this morning, this is what we saw unfold on live television. Iraqi soldiers firing into the Tigris River, apparently they tell us or what news sources have told us was in an attempt to shot at coalition, down coalition pilots. Right now, the U.S. military is telling us there is no reports of a plane downed over Baghdad. The British Royal Air Force also says it has no reports of coalition planes down in Baghdad. Both said all planes were accounted for, nevertheless, the Iraqis were shooting at something. And at one point, we saw small fishing vessels criss-cross the Tigris in search for whatever it was they were targeting.
Bill, we should also mention that some people believe this could have been a real dramatic show, that the Iraqis are putting on to add to the import of what the Iraqi vice president told us earlier this morning, that soon we will see paraded on Iraqi television some American prisoners of war. So we'll see. It didn't surprise our experts this morning though if this is all part of an elaborate setup -- Bill?
HEMMER: Yes, you know, Paula, I think about the first -- go ahead, I'll take it. The first Persian, thanks, the Persian Gulf War 12 years ago, and even if you think about the no-fly zones, about essentially in place for the better part of the past decade, there have been oftentimes reports out of Baghdad that coalition aircraft have been down and quickly, the Pentagon had to react to this and essentially shoot it down, for lack of a better phrase, than the fact that it was not true.
Now we are hearing right now that there are no accounts right now of any missing coalition aircraft, but I thought it was interesting, just looking for the wires a short time ago, a Reuters is quoting a spokesperson for the United States Air Force as saying that he's not confirming or denying it, but he has no reports right now of anything down. And listen, what all this means is quite unknown right now. I'm probably pushing a little further than I should right now in terms of speculation, but the RAF and the U.S. are both saying that no coalition aircraft are unaccounted for.
Now we're hearing again from Barbara Starr, yet again thanks, Ted, in my ear, that Barbara Starr reiterates that yet again today. The Pentagon is saying nothing that can account for any missing aircraft at this point. So we will follow that.
I want to let you know also about an event here that happened in Kuwait outside in the desert today. 1:30 a.m. overnight, a U.S. soldier is dead, a member of the 101st Airborne Division. A fellow soldier, also a member of that unit being held now as a suspect. We will have a closer look at that coming up here in a moment.
Also, a coalition spearhead about halfway to the Iraqi capital. We'll be tracking that and much more in the next hour of our continuous war coverage. It is Sunday, Paula, and there is a myriad of events to keep track of you. Back to you now in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: ...Saddam Hussein is. Yesterday, General Tommy Franks says he doesn't really know whether he's dead or alive, but the campaign will continue even if he isn't dead. The air campaign over Baghdad was meant to erode and destroy the Iraqi president's ability to rule the country. So is the leader still in control? David Ensor takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With another tape of Saddam Hussein, Iraqi television sought to emphasize that he remains alive and in control. True or not, U.S. intelligence and military leaders say it matters less and less.
GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: I don't know if he's alive or not. But interestingly, the way we're undertaking this military operation it would not be changed irrespective of the location or the life of this one man.
ENSOR: U.S. intelligence officials say communications from the Iraqi leadership are dramatically down since the first airstrikes of the war, including the one that targeted his compound, suggesting to some Saddam is probably alive and most worried about staying that way.
POLLACK: He doesn't know if it was a human who betrayed him or it was a technical system that betrayed him. And so as a result, his MO is always go to ground, go into hiding, rely only on your trusted emissaries.
ENSOR: Besides tracking Iraqi leaders, U.S. intelligence officials say they have several key goals now, to protect and help U.S. troops, to negotiate surrenders and stand downs of Iraqi units, to watch Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. And not only to keep those weapons from being used against American soldiers. POLLACK: One of the great concerns that the administration has is that in the collapse of the regime, you may have individuals who will take some of the weapons of mass destruction and transfer them to other countries or to terrorist groups.
ENSOR: The U.S. military dealt with one such group Friday, bombing the Northern Iraqi enclave held by Ansar Al-Islam, a fundamentalist group the U.S. says has ties to al Qaeda. Special forces and U.S. intelligence moved in after the bombs.
(on camera): Though publicly, U.S. officials are playing down the importance of this point of Saddam Hussein, they would still very much like to get him. Analysts argue if he dies, the regime could quickly come apart at the seams, potentially saving many lives. American, Iraqi, British, and others.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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