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American Morning

Interview With Con Coughlin

Aired April 16, 2003 - 09:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. Central Command has said the major battles in Iraq are over. And looking back now at the campaign, the military campaign took less than a month. What went wrong with Saddam Hussein's military?
Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," and also "Saddam: The Secret Life," an executive editor at the "London Sunday Telegraph" is back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING. Always good to talk to you.

I think there is a lot of credit given to the U.S. military, the campaign that Tommy Franks conducted, on behalf of the British as well. How much of this campaign, though, is attributed to the ignorance and the arrogance of Saddam Hussein? Not just now, but over the past 25 years or so?

CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR, "SADDAM": Well, the comparisons between Saddam and Hitler are often a cliche. But when it comes to Saddam's military conduct, he's just like Hitler. He never listened to his generals, he never took advice. If he had taken advice, he would never have invaded Iran, he would have never invaded Kuwait, and he probably wouldn't have gotten into this conflict.

HEMMER: So he had no military training. He was rejected by the military school in Baghdad, right?

COUGHLIN: That is right.

HEMMER: And during the Iran/Iraq war, where you claim a million people on both sides lost their lives, many times he would literally pull generals and pull commanders from the front lines without going there firsthand, for not doing what he ordered.

COUGHLIN: That's right.

HEMMER: And with a limited military background, that put his country in what sort of precarious situation?

COUGHLIN: Yes. Coming to this conflict, I think they've had enough, they didn't want to fight. They'd sacrificed their lives for two pointless wars. They were being asked again to fight for Saddam, but there's some quite interesting stuff coming out from the Iraqi commanders who surrendered. They basically said, We didn't have any orders. We were basically told to go and sit in the desert, be bombed, and await orders. Well, that's no way to fight a war.

HEMMER: Do you believe he led his country into national suicide? COUGHLIN: Yes, very much so. The problem with Saddam is that Saddam only cares about himself, he doesn't care about Iraq, and he thinks is going to be "good for me," so he does it. He doesn't listen to anybody. When it backfires and people get killed, Well, that's tough. But again, as long as Saddam survives, that's the bottom line for Saddam.

HEMMER: Yes. CENTCOM said during this war -- I think it was right around week two, maybe day 14 of the war, they said, right now, we're inside the decision-making process of the enemy.

Which either suggested, A, they had spies who knew what the Iraqi military was going to do or, B, they could watch from above and probably sometimes in disbelief, seeing these tanks being thrown out of Baghdad yet again to be sitting ducks. Do you agree with that?

COUGHLIN: I think that is very true. I do think a lot of work was done before the war in trying to get the message across to Iraqi military commanders that the war was against Saddam and his inner circle, not against the Iraqi army, not against Iraqi air force. The Iraqi air force never took off. I mean, they do have some quite decent planes, but we never saw it.

HEMMER: So now you have three wars, Iran/Iraq, the invasion of Kuwait, and now Persian Gulf War II in Iraq, 0-2-1. Hardly the stuff that consists of a future patent (ph) for Saddam Hussein.

I want to know, from a military standpoint, and a guy that's covered him for so long, did we give this guy too much credit in retrospect?

COUGHLIN: We did. I mean, my view is we should have done this a long time ago. I mean, that's my feeling, we thought Saddam was a tough nut to crack, and so we kept our distance. But in the '90s, when Saddam first started playing up with the weapons inspectioners, that's the moment we should have done this, not now. But yes. We thought -- we believed his propaganda in a sense, and of course, the propaganda machine, apart from the security apparatus, is what has kept Saddam in power for so long.

HEMMER: Michael Vickers (ph) is a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments Washington -- a very long name, and a very long title for his organization. He says senior U.S. military leaders say Saddam Hussein is the world's worst military leader. Is there any dispute in that now?

COUGHLIN: I wouldn't dispute it. I think -- as I say, he's just like Hitler. He wouldn't listen to his generals, he wouldn't listen to his commanders. And a lot of people in the Iraqi armed forces are well-trained. Some of them are trained at Sandhurst in England. They know what they are doing. But he never listened to them, and now we can see the consequences.

HEMMER: Yes, we can. Con Coughlin, thanks. We'll talk again.

COUGHLIN: Pleasure, Bill. HEMMER: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 16, 2003 - 09:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. Central Command has said the major battles in Iraq are over. And looking back now at the campaign, the military campaign took less than a month. What went wrong with Saddam Hussein's military?
Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," and also "Saddam: The Secret Life," an executive editor at the "London Sunday Telegraph" is back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING. Always good to talk to you.

I think there is a lot of credit given to the U.S. military, the campaign that Tommy Franks conducted, on behalf of the British as well. How much of this campaign, though, is attributed to the ignorance and the arrogance of Saddam Hussein? Not just now, but over the past 25 years or so?

CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR, "SADDAM": Well, the comparisons between Saddam and Hitler are often a cliche. But when it comes to Saddam's military conduct, he's just like Hitler. He never listened to his generals, he never took advice. If he had taken advice, he would never have invaded Iran, he would have never invaded Kuwait, and he probably wouldn't have gotten into this conflict.

HEMMER: So he had no military training. He was rejected by the military school in Baghdad, right?

COUGHLIN: That is right.

HEMMER: And during the Iran/Iraq war, where you claim a million people on both sides lost their lives, many times he would literally pull generals and pull commanders from the front lines without going there firsthand, for not doing what he ordered.

COUGHLIN: That's right.

HEMMER: And with a limited military background, that put his country in what sort of precarious situation?

COUGHLIN: Yes. Coming to this conflict, I think they've had enough, they didn't want to fight. They'd sacrificed their lives for two pointless wars. They were being asked again to fight for Saddam, but there's some quite interesting stuff coming out from the Iraqi commanders who surrendered. They basically said, We didn't have any orders. We were basically told to go and sit in the desert, be bombed, and await orders. Well, that's no way to fight a war.

HEMMER: Do you believe he led his country into national suicide? COUGHLIN: Yes, very much so. The problem with Saddam is that Saddam only cares about himself, he doesn't care about Iraq, and he thinks is going to be "good for me," so he does it. He doesn't listen to anybody. When it backfires and people get killed, Well, that's tough. But again, as long as Saddam survives, that's the bottom line for Saddam.

HEMMER: Yes. CENTCOM said during this war -- I think it was right around week two, maybe day 14 of the war, they said, right now, we're inside the decision-making process of the enemy.

Which either suggested, A, they had spies who knew what the Iraqi military was going to do or, B, they could watch from above and probably sometimes in disbelief, seeing these tanks being thrown out of Baghdad yet again to be sitting ducks. Do you agree with that?

COUGHLIN: I think that is very true. I do think a lot of work was done before the war in trying to get the message across to Iraqi military commanders that the war was against Saddam and his inner circle, not against the Iraqi army, not against Iraqi air force. The Iraqi air force never took off. I mean, they do have some quite decent planes, but we never saw it.

HEMMER: So now you have three wars, Iran/Iraq, the invasion of Kuwait, and now Persian Gulf War II in Iraq, 0-2-1. Hardly the stuff that consists of a future patent (ph) for Saddam Hussein.

I want to know, from a military standpoint, and a guy that's covered him for so long, did we give this guy too much credit in retrospect?

COUGHLIN: We did. I mean, my view is we should have done this a long time ago. I mean, that's my feeling, we thought Saddam was a tough nut to crack, and so we kept our distance. But in the '90s, when Saddam first started playing up with the weapons inspectioners, that's the moment we should have done this, not now. But yes. We thought -- we believed his propaganda in a sense, and of course, the propaganda machine, apart from the security apparatus, is what has kept Saddam in power for so long.

HEMMER: Michael Vickers (ph) is a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments Washington -- a very long name, and a very long title for his organization. He says senior U.S. military leaders say Saddam Hussein is the world's worst military leader. Is there any dispute in that now?

COUGHLIN: I wouldn't dispute it. I think -- as I say, he's just like Hitler. He wouldn't listen to his generals, he wouldn't listen to his commanders. And a lot of people in the Iraqi armed forces are well-trained. Some of them are trained at Sandhurst in England. They know what they are doing. But he never listened to them, and now we can see the consequences.

HEMMER: Yes, we can. Con Coughlin, thanks. We'll talk again.

COUGHLIN: Pleasure, Bill. HEMMER: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com