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American Morning
Biblical Iraq
Aired April 18, 2003 - 09:37 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Long ago, what is now Iraq was humanity's cradle of civilization. The U.S. march through Iraq in the past few weeks reads like a story through the Bible. Nasiriyah, where American forces engaged in fierce fighting at the beginning of the war, biblical sites, like the birthplace of Abraham and the Garden of Eden. Bruce Feiler, author of "Walking the Bible," is in Boston this morning to talk more about this.
Good to have you, Bruce. Good morning to you.
As we talk about the Garden of Eden, I'm curious to know, as a biblical scholar yourself, what were your thoughts going through this three-week war?
BRUCE FEILER, AUTHOR, "WALKING THE BIBLE": I mean, it's exactly what you say. This part of the world where the Tigris and Euphrates come together down in Basra and Nasiriyah is exactly first where civilization began tens of thousands of years ago, where people stopped wandering from place and place and first began cultivating these rivers and agriculture. And it's also where the Bible began. The Bible says the Garden of Eden is the confluence of four rivers. One of those is the Tigris. One of those is the Euphrates. The other two were unknown. It also says that the Garden of Eden is actually just to the east of Sumar (ph), and Sumar (ph) we know to have been right where the Tigris and Euphrates come together.
So it's clear that the bible wants to say these stories began in that part of the world.
HEMMER: Looking at the ancient city of Ur, the symbolism did not escape us earlier in the week when the future Iraqi leaders, hoping to lead the country, met there. What did you take from that significance there, the meeting location?
FEILER: I actually thought that was really a positive sign. I think one difference we've had is the United States has viewed this largely a political war, and across the Muslim and Arab world, it's been viewed as a religious world. I think by hearkening back to Abraham, of course being the shared ancestor of Jews, Christians and Muslims. I think it shows we are beginning to understand there is a religious element to this war, and that the religion, particularly this interfaith conversation that is going on around the world, can be and really should be part of the reconciliation.
HEMMER: You're looking at 5,000 years of history, history and humanity there, Bruce. They have survived many things in the past. Your perspective now on coming out of this one. FEILER: Well, I think that the conflict is inherent to the bible. I mean, in both of my books, "Walking the Bible" and "Abraham," I mean, we talked about Abraham. Abraham tries to kill each of his sons. Ismail by kicking him off into the desert, and Isaac, by sacrificing him up on the rock, and yet there is still reconciliation built into the story when Ismail and Isaac come together side by side and bury their father.
And I think that that is what's going on around the country, which is the descendants of Ismail and Isaac are beginning to have a conversation. So the fact that there has been violence ought not to surprise us, and I think there is reason to hope in the Bible itself that out of this violence can come some new way that the descendants of these various tribes can try to get along.
HEMMER: The one thing you learn from Iraqis is that they are so well aware of their own national history, and that they take a substantial amount of pride on what is happening in this country. Listen, we know the British mandate is set up a current day Iraq, but if you go beyond that and over past the several 5,000 years, the Iraqis will come clean and tell you know just how much pride they take in it.
Final thought now, Bruce, on the reconstruction effort right now underway now in that country. Your thoughts about getting this place back in order and back on its feet running with a firm foundation.
FEILER: Well, I think one thing we've seen with the museum, the archaeological museum, I think there is an idea that's beginning to take currency, that perhaps the United States having not protected the museum in the way they protected the oil wells and the mosques, perhaps the United States and museums and universities here can put up an amount of money and perhaps buy back these archaeological artifacts, because I think that tourism, people wanting to go to these places, will be a huge part of bringing this part of the world back in to the center of civilization where, of course, it all began.
HEMMER: And let's hope maybe the FBI agents en route right now. Also the Brits are sending some, too. So is the U.N. through UNESCO, trying to locate and salvage these pieces.
Bruce Feiler, good to talk to you, OK. Have a good weekend.
FEILER: My pleasure.
HEMMER: Live in Boston, here is Heidi.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: More on the video we've been showing you this morning, supposedly showing Saddam Hussein, which is said to have been taken on April 9th. Abu Dhabi television is broadcasting the pictures. You see them there.
Our Rula Amin is in the Iraqi capital now with reaction to the latest tape, reportedly once again showing the former Iraqi leader.
Rula, last time we spoke, we know there is not much power for people to view this on their television sets for those who have them. Any chance that you've had to talk with people on the street maybe about what we've seen?
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are not going to be able to see it on their own TVs, except those who have satellite dishes. But the word of this video is going to spread very fast in Iraq, and it's going to be another source for more rumors.
There's been plenty of rumors here in Baghdad on where Saddam Hussein is, how did he disappear, why did he disappear, how come he didn't find? Was he betrayed by his loyals? Did he make a deal for himself to save himself and save the Americans a fight in Baghdad? So the fact that now there is this state allegedly Saddam Hussein himself, allegedly shot on April 9th, the day the Americans went into Baghdad, it's going to be another source for people speculation. They've been speculating a lot. We have seen people coming up, approaching journalists, and saying they've seen him in certain neighborhoods and seen other people speaking to him, asking him on what happened and that he has told them they have to be patient and see what the result is the end.
But it's very hard to verify all of these rumors, because many people are so intrigued by his disappearance that the fantasy plays a huge role here. Abu Dhabi say they know their source and they think it is shot on April 9th. However, probably they cannot verify that it is Saddam Hussein himself.
You know, all of this is happening at Iraqis are trying to cope with the new reality. Everything here is new. There is no central authority. There is no -- there is chaos. People are not used to the scenes of the U.S. Marines, U.S. tanks in the capital, Baghdad, and they are having mixed feelings. They are happy to see Saddam Hussein go, but trying to come to terms on what is happening and what is going to happen next. Today, we saw more people protesting on the streets for the first time, a huge demo, thousands of Iraqis and organized demo, went on the streets, demanding that the U.S. troops leave here, demanding that Iraq should be an Islamic state, and saying only Iraqis can rule Iraq.
We know the United States administration wants to a former U.S. General to administer Iraq over the next few months until Iraqis can come together and form a new government. It seems many Iraqis already are frustrated by this approach, and they are trying to circumvent it -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Rula, you say that people are happy to see that the regime has fallen, but when we see pictures like this, again, once that word spreads on the streets of Baghdad, will these people immediately become terrified? Or will they be patient enough to wait this out and wait for these rumors to filter out and get to the truth of this matter?
AMIN: I don't think people will be terrified. I don't think anybody has any illusions that Saddam Hussein can regain power here in Iraq. However, many may think that this is a sign that there will be more fighting, that the Baathist are regime and its followers are not completely over, that they are still determined to inflict some kind of damage to the troops, or maybe have some kind of a military conflict with the U.S. troops, and that may mean more trouble ahead in the future. Some may see this as a sign that he's desperate and he's trying to show he didn't leave and betray Iraqis.
It's going to be interesting how people will react to this video, those who see it, and those who will hear about it. We're going to hear even more details from them on the video that we saw more than what we saw of our own eyes -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Much more to come on this, I'm sure of it. Rula Amin in Baghdad, thank you so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 18, 2003 - 09:37 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Long ago, what is now Iraq was humanity's cradle of civilization. The U.S. march through Iraq in the past few weeks reads like a story through the Bible. Nasiriyah, where American forces engaged in fierce fighting at the beginning of the war, biblical sites, like the birthplace of Abraham and the Garden of Eden. Bruce Feiler, author of "Walking the Bible," is in Boston this morning to talk more about this.
Good to have you, Bruce. Good morning to you.
As we talk about the Garden of Eden, I'm curious to know, as a biblical scholar yourself, what were your thoughts going through this three-week war?
BRUCE FEILER, AUTHOR, "WALKING THE BIBLE": I mean, it's exactly what you say. This part of the world where the Tigris and Euphrates come together down in Basra and Nasiriyah is exactly first where civilization began tens of thousands of years ago, where people stopped wandering from place and place and first began cultivating these rivers and agriculture. And it's also where the Bible began. The Bible says the Garden of Eden is the confluence of four rivers. One of those is the Tigris. One of those is the Euphrates. The other two were unknown. It also says that the Garden of Eden is actually just to the east of Sumar (ph), and Sumar (ph) we know to have been right where the Tigris and Euphrates come together.
So it's clear that the bible wants to say these stories began in that part of the world.
HEMMER: Looking at the ancient city of Ur, the symbolism did not escape us earlier in the week when the future Iraqi leaders, hoping to lead the country, met there. What did you take from that significance there, the meeting location?
FEILER: I actually thought that was really a positive sign. I think one difference we've had is the United States has viewed this largely a political war, and across the Muslim and Arab world, it's been viewed as a religious world. I think by hearkening back to Abraham, of course being the shared ancestor of Jews, Christians and Muslims. I think it shows we are beginning to understand there is a religious element to this war, and that the religion, particularly this interfaith conversation that is going on around the world, can be and really should be part of the reconciliation.
HEMMER: You're looking at 5,000 years of history, history and humanity there, Bruce. They have survived many things in the past. Your perspective now on coming out of this one. FEILER: Well, I think that the conflict is inherent to the bible. I mean, in both of my books, "Walking the Bible" and "Abraham," I mean, we talked about Abraham. Abraham tries to kill each of his sons. Ismail by kicking him off into the desert, and Isaac, by sacrificing him up on the rock, and yet there is still reconciliation built into the story when Ismail and Isaac come together side by side and bury their father.
And I think that that is what's going on around the country, which is the descendants of Ismail and Isaac are beginning to have a conversation. So the fact that there has been violence ought not to surprise us, and I think there is reason to hope in the Bible itself that out of this violence can come some new way that the descendants of these various tribes can try to get along.
HEMMER: The one thing you learn from Iraqis is that they are so well aware of their own national history, and that they take a substantial amount of pride on what is happening in this country. Listen, we know the British mandate is set up a current day Iraq, but if you go beyond that and over past the several 5,000 years, the Iraqis will come clean and tell you know just how much pride they take in it.
Final thought now, Bruce, on the reconstruction effort right now underway now in that country. Your thoughts about getting this place back in order and back on its feet running with a firm foundation.
FEILER: Well, I think one thing we've seen with the museum, the archaeological museum, I think there is an idea that's beginning to take currency, that perhaps the United States having not protected the museum in the way they protected the oil wells and the mosques, perhaps the United States and museums and universities here can put up an amount of money and perhaps buy back these archaeological artifacts, because I think that tourism, people wanting to go to these places, will be a huge part of bringing this part of the world back in to the center of civilization where, of course, it all began.
HEMMER: And let's hope maybe the FBI agents en route right now. Also the Brits are sending some, too. So is the U.N. through UNESCO, trying to locate and salvage these pieces.
Bruce Feiler, good to talk to you, OK. Have a good weekend.
FEILER: My pleasure.
HEMMER: Live in Boston, here is Heidi.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: More on the video we've been showing you this morning, supposedly showing Saddam Hussein, which is said to have been taken on April 9th. Abu Dhabi television is broadcasting the pictures. You see them there.
Our Rula Amin is in the Iraqi capital now with reaction to the latest tape, reportedly once again showing the former Iraqi leader.
Rula, last time we spoke, we know there is not much power for people to view this on their television sets for those who have them. Any chance that you've had to talk with people on the street maybe about what we've seen?
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are not going to be able to see it on their own TVs, except those who have satellite dishes. But the word of this video is going to spread very fast in Iraq, and it's going to be another source for more rumors.
There's been plenty of rumors here in Baghdad on where Saddam Hussein is, how did he disappear, why did he disappear, how come he didn't find? Was he betrayed by his loyals? Did he make a deal for himself to save himself and save the Americans a fight in Baghdad? So the fact that now there is this state allegedly Saddam Hussein himself, allegedly shot on April 9th, the day the Americans went into Baghdad, it's going to be another source for people speculation. They've been speculating a lot. We have seen people coming up, approaching journalists, and saying they've seen him in certain neighborhoods and seen other people speaking to him, asking him on what happened and that he has told them they have to be patient and see what the result is the end.
But it's very hard to verify all of these rumors, because many people are so intrigued by his disappearance that the fantasy plays a huge role here. Abu Dhabi say they know their source and they think it is shot on April 9th. However, probably they cannot verify that it is Saddam Hussein himself.
You know, all of this is happening at Iraqis are trying to cope with the new reality. Everything here is new. There is no central authority. There is no -- there is chaos. People are not used to the scenes of the U.S. Marines, U.S. tanks in the capital, Baghdad, and they are having mixed feelings. They are happy to see Saddam Hussein go, but trying to come to terms on what is happening and what is going to happen next. Today, we saw more people protesting on the streets for the first time, a huge demo, thousands of Iraqis and organized demo, went on the streets, demanding that the U.S. troops leave here, demanding that Iraq should be an Islamic state, and saying only Iraqis can rule Iraq.
We know the United States administration wants to a former U.S. General to administer Iraq over the next few months until Iraqis can come together and form a new government. It seems many Iraqis already are frustrated by this approach, and they are trying to circumvent it -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Rula, you say that people are happy to see that the regime has fallen, but when we see pictures like this, again, once that word spreads on the streets of Baghdad, will these people immediately become terrified? Or will they be patient enough to wait this out and wait for these rumors to filter out and get to the truth of this matter?
AMIN: I don't think people will be terrified. I don't think anybody has any illusions that Saddam Hussein can regain power here in Iraq. However, many may think that this is a sign that there will be more fighting, that the Baathist are regime and its followers are not completely over, that they are still determined to inflict some kind of damage to the troops, or maybe have some kind of a military conflict with the U.S. troops, and that may mean more trouble ahead in the future. Some may see this as a sign that he's desperate and he's trying to show he didn't leave and betray Iraqis.
It's going to be interesting how people will react to this video, those who see it, and those who will hear about it. We're going to hear even more details from them on the video that we saw more than what we saw of our own eyes -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Much more to come on this, I'm sure of it. Rula Amin in Baghdad, thank you so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
