Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Most-Wanted Iraqis

Aired April 22, 2003 - 08:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A leading member of Saddam Hussein's inner circle is now in U.S. custody. Former Prime Minister Mohammed Hamza al-Zubaydi was number 18 among the U.S. military's 55 most wanted Iraqis. In the deck of cards given to soldiers to help identify fleeing leaders, al-Zubaydi is the "Queen of Spades."
U.S. Central Command says at least seven former regime leaders have been captured now, including two of Saddam's half-brothers. So how significant is this latest arrest?

CNN analyst Ken Pollack from the Saban Center in -- at the Brookings Institute is in Washington this morning. He joins us now.

Hello to you -- Ken.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Hi, Heidi, how are you?

COLLINS: I'm great.

Tell us, though, how significant is this arrest?

POLLACK: This is an important catch. There's no question about it. It's important for two reasons.

First, Zubaydi is one of the top Iraqi war criminals. You remember that originally the U.S. started out with a list of about a dozen people, a dirty dozen who they wanted to get their hands on. Zubaydi was a member of that list, because he was a regime inner circle member, because he has a lot of blood on his hand from a whole lot of events, including the suppression of the Shi'a after the Gulf War in 1991.

It's also important, though, because he is such a top level official, it demonstrates that we are starting to crack the inner circle. This is one of the people who would be most protected, most likely to be -- to receive the best kind of protection from the remainders of Saddam's regime. If we can get at Zubaydi, he may have information about some of the other members of the inner circle.

COLLINS: I'm curious to know, too, we were just mentioning about some of the other arrests that were made, and these cards and the different, you know, seven of diamonds and all of that, any significance to these cards? Why are they assigned those values?

POLLACK: I think that my sense is Saddam Hussein being the "Ace of Spades," they wanted to give the highest value cards, in most card games, with the highest ranking figures as a way of reinforcing to American soldiers hey, these are the guys you want to go after. If you've got a shot to get the ace of clubs or the ace of spades, that's a person who we really want. You know just to reinforce who the most important ones are, who the lesser figures are.

COLLINS: Any significance, in your mind, to where these people are being arrested, where they're being found? We know that, according to Reuters, al-Zubaydi was captured east of Karbala. What do you think about that? Are they all sort of in the same area and what does that mean?

POLLACK: Well that is one of the great unknowns, Heidi. I don't think that anyone really knows where these guys are. And believe me, if I actually knew where they all were located, I'd be passing that information on to Central Command.

But what we're seeing is that they are being taken mostly in Iraq's population centers. We did get the two half-brothers out at the Syrian border. Central Command picked them up trying to escape -- or excuse me, Watban, one of the half-brothers, out trying to escape to Syria. There have been others who have been fleeing to Syria. But a lot of them will continue to be in Iraq's population centers. And what that suggests is that some of the regime figures may still be trapped in Baghdad, perhaps even Saddam himself, in that maze of tunnels and in just the back streets of what is truly an enormous city.

COLLINS: Ken, I also want to ask you about something else, one of the discoveries made by U.S. and coalition forces were a large number of suicide vests. Any idea where they are getting this kind of equipment?

POLLACK: No, I don't think that any of us knows where exactly it's coming from. But these kind of suicide vests are not difficult to manufacture. That, of course, has been the problem for the Israelis in dealing with Palestinian terrorist groups. It's also going to be a problem for U.S. forces. You basically just need some basic explosives, C-4, plastique, something like that, and then a whole bunch of metal to give you a fragmentation device. So it's a very simple system, not difficult to manufacture, and we may come across more caches like this over time.

COLLINS: Ken, this morning we've also spoken with our Karl Penhaul. He is in Karbala where we saw thousands and thousands of Shiite Muslims on their pilgrimage that they have not been able to do under Saddam Hussein's regime. There were some anti-American sentiments chanted, so to speak, at least yesterday, that we know of. Any concern there in your mind?

POLLACK: Well I think we have to have some concern because there clearly are a number of people inside of Iraq who want U.S. forces gone. And I think we shouldn't push this too far. I think that many, and I'd say most, Iraqis probably are deeply suspicious of U.S. motives about them. They just don't know what it is that the U.S. intends now that we are in occupation of Iraq.

But I think that that should be taken as something somewhat different from Iraq's old elites, whether they are Sunni's tribal sheiks or Shi'a religious figures or old Iraqi generals, all of whom who would love to see the United States leave because they want control of the country. Many of them are, in fact, deeply frightened that the United States is going to impose real democracy in Iraq because under those circumstances they would find it much more difficult to exercise the kind of power they'd like.

So you're going to see these people agitating to get the U.S. out. The problem will occur if the U.S. doesn't do a good job with the reconstruction. Under those circumstances, then you may see those calls for the U.S. getting out picked up by the wider population.

COLLINS: All right. CNN analyst Ken Pollack coming to us from Washington this morning, thank you - Ken.

POLLACK: Thank you, Heidi.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: There's a silver lining to all of this, you got to think that the Iraqis are right now helping U.S. authorities track down some of these...

COLLINS: This is true.

HEMMER: ... 55 members on the list. They continue to get cooperation in some circles.

COLLINS: That's right.

HEMMER: Still a ways to go, though, huh?

COLLINS: Yes.

HEMMER: All right.

COLLINS: A bunch more.

HEMMER: That's right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired April 22, 2003 - 08:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A leading member of Saddam Hussein's inner circle is now in U.S. custody. Former Prime Minister Mohammed Hamza al-Zubaydi was number 18 among the U.S. military's 55 most wanted Iraqis. In the deck of cards given to soldiers to help identify fleeing leaders, al-Zubaydi is the "Queen of Spades."
U.S. Central Command says at least seven former regime leaders have been captured now, including two of Saddam's half-brothers. So how significant is this latest arrest?

CNN analyst Ken Pollack from the Saban Center in -- at the Brookings Institute is in Washington this morning. He joins us now.

Hello to you -- Ken.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Hi, Heidi, how are you?

COLLINS: I'm great.

Tell us, though, how significant is this arrest?

POLLACK: This is an important catch. There's no question about it. It's important for two reasons.

First, Zubaydi is one of the top Iraqi war criminals. You remember that originally the U.S. started out with a list of about a dozen people, a dirty dozen who they wanted to get their hands on. Zubaydi was a member of that list, because he was a regime inner circle member, because he has a lot of blood on his hand from a whole lot of events, including the suppression of the Shi'a after the Gulf War in 1991.

It's also important, though, because he is such a top level official, it demonstrates that we are starting to crack the inner circle. This is one of the people who would be most protected, most likely to be -- to receive the best kind of protection from the remainders of Saddam's regime. If we can get at Zubaydi, he may have information about some of the other members of the inner circle.

COLLINS: I'm curious to know, too, we were just mentioning about some of the other arrests that were made, and these cards and the different, you know, seven of diamonds and all of that, any significance to these cards? Why are they assigned those values?

POLLACK: I think that my sense is Saddam Hussein being the "Ace of Spades," they wanted to give the highest value cards, in most card games, with the highest ranking figures as a way of reinforcing to American soldiers hey, these are the guys you want to go after. If you've got a shot to get the ace of clubs or the ace of spades, that's a person who we really want. You know just to reinforce who the most important ones are, who the lesser figures are.

COLLINS: Any significance, in your mind, to where these people are being arrested, where they're being found? We know that, according to Reuters, al-Zubaydi was captured east of Karbala. What do you think about that? Are they all sort of in the same area and what does that mean?

POLLACK: Well that is one of the great unknowns, Heidi. I don't think that anyone really knows where these guys are. And believe me, if I actually knew where they all were located, I'd be passing that information on to Central Command.

But what we're seeing is that they are being taken mostly in Iraq's population centers. We did get the two half-brothers out at the Syrian border. Central Command picked them up trying to escape -- or excuse me, Watban, one of the half-brothers, out trying to escape to Syria. There have been others who have been fleeing to Syria. But a lot of them will continue to be in Iraq's population centers. And what that suggests is that some of the regime figures may still be trapped in Baghdad, perhaps even Saddam himself, in that maze of tunnels and in just the back streets of what is truly an enormous city.

COLLINS: Ken, I also want to ask you about something else, one of the discoveries made by U.S. and coalition forces were a large number of suicide vests. Any idea where they are getting this kind of equipment?

POLLACK: No, I don't think that any of us knows where exactly it's coming from. But these kind of suicide vests are not difficult to manufacture. That, of course, has been the problem for the Israelis in dealing with Palestinian terrorist groups. It's also going to be a problem for U.S. forces. You basically just need some basic explosives, C-4, plastique, something like that, and then a whole bunch of metal to give you a fragmentation device. So it's a very simple system, not difficult to manufacture, and we may come across more caches like this over time.

COLLINS: Ken, this morning we've also spoken with our Karl Penhaul. He is in Karbala where we saw thousands and thousands of Shiite Muslims on their pilgrimage that they have not been able to do under Saddam Hussein's regime. There were some anti-American sentiments chanted, so to speak, at least yesterday, that we know of. Any concern there in your mind?

POLLACK: Well I think we have to have some concern because there clearly are a number of people inside of Iraq who want U.S. forces gone. And I think we shouldn't push this too far. I think that many, and I'd say most, Iraqis probably are deeply suspicious of U.S. motives about them. They just don't know what it is that the U.S. intends now that we are in occupation of Iraq.

But I think that that should be taken as something somewhat different from Iraq's old elites, whether they are Sunni's tribal sheiks or Shi'a religious figures or old Iraqi generals, all of whom who would love to see the United States leave because they want control of the country. Many of them are, in fact, deeply frightened that the United States is going to impose real democracy in Iraq because under those circumstances they would find it much more difficult to exercise the kind of power they'd like.

So you're going to see these people agitating to get the U.S. out. The problem will occur if the U.S. doesn't do a good job with the reconstruction. Under those circumstances, then you may see those calls for the U.S. getting out picked up by the wider population.

COLLINS: All right. CNN analyst Ken Pollack coming to us from Washington this morning, thank you - Ken.

POLLACK: Thank you, Heidi.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: There's a silver lining to all of this, you got to think that the Iraqis are right now helping U.S. authorities track down some of these...

COLLINS: This is true.

HEMMER: ... 55 members on the list. They continue to get cooperation in some circles.

COLLINS: That's right.

HEMMER: Still a ways to go, though, huh?

COLLINS: Yes.

HEMMER: All right.

COLLINS: A bunch more.

HEMMER: That's right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com