Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Undercover Reporter
Aired April 29, 2003 - 09:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Earlier this month, while U.S. forces were fighting their way into Baghdad, reporter John Burns got a midnight visit from Iraqi intelligence Agents. They accused him of being a spy for the CIA, declared him under arrest. They told him at the time, if he did not cooperate, it would -- quote -- "be the end for him." They would take him to a place where he would not return. That's what the Iraqis did. Burns able to go into hiding there in Baghdad. As it turns out, it was the supposed intelligence agents who never came back for him. The reporter for "The New York Times," John Burns, is our guest now live in Baghdad.
John, appreciate your time. Want to know from you, as you go back as to what brought this on, is there anything you can put your finger on?
JOHN BURNS, "NEW YORK TIMES": I think they had a number of us in their sights for some time. Anybody who had written anything at all about terror and fear in Iraq was declared to be an enemy. I think if they didn't act sooner than this, it was because -- to take action against "The New York Times," or for that matter, against CNN or any major American media organization would in their estimation compounded their problems with the United States.
HEMMER: How did you hide out?
BURNS: In the stairwell to begin with. Left me subsequently since they stole my money and equipment and had told me not to leave my room. But then left me in a darkened hotel with no electricity, and with nobody on guard on the door. I made my way to the stairwell, eventually was taken in by first one and then another correspondent here in the Palestine Hotel, who in effect kept me safe. I was able to send messages to officials of the government that I knew, saying to them that these facts were known to "The New York Times" and were known to the United States government, and that any harm that came to me, these officials who were information ministry officials would be answerable for, and that I judged that the penalty that they would be imposed on them would be severe.
And here I am.
Unfortunately, as you know, there a dozen or more journalists who did not survive the war. For me, this was a problem without lasting injury.
HEMMER: There you are, indeed, as we talk to you today. The regime is not there, though; it's over and finished.
If you reported this story at this point and Saddam Hussein was still in power, what would come of you at that point?
BURNS: Well, we all had a problem, and we all dealt with it in different ways. Telling the truth about Saddam Hussein's Iraq was as bigger a challenge as I've ever faced in 30, 35 years in this business, and we all took a position on the spectrum between caution, and if you will, the desire to tell the truth as we saw you the it. Where you struck that position was a purely personal matter.
There is something, I know now, of an inquisition going on in the United States, or a review of that matter as to how brave, how forthright any of us were. There's been some discussion of CNN's coverage, as you know.
My feeling is that, you know, hindsight is 20/20.
What I can tell you is that this most difficult and dangerous place that I ever worked. And I'm disinclined to sit in judgment on those who struck a different position on the spectrum. Everybody had different considerations to keep in mind, and staying in play here, staying here for the war was an important thing.
And no doubt the Columbia Journalism School and other erudite people who look at the way we work will look at this over the years, but my feeling is, in the net, from what I see, that American news coverage of Iraq was pretty good over the last year or so.
HEMMER: You know, John Lee Anderson, a colleague of yours, working in Baghdad, writes for "The New Yorker," he was on our program about two weeks ago, and he was asked the question as to why he did not press the Iraqi information minister on the information he was giving out at the time. He gave us the clear indication that people were disappearing from their hotel rooms in the middle of the night, and a lot of times, you got very cautious and apprehensive about pushing the issue too far.
Did you find yourself in that similar situation, based on your previous answer?
BURNS: I did. I mean, looking back on it, "Chemical Ali" as he became known in the British tabloids, the information minister, who went into a world of, as you know, complete delusion, I think challenging him wasn't really necessary. I think he challenged himself to stand on this roof, with Americans troops clearly visible across the river and their tanks on the morning of April 7th, as I recall, and to look at me and say, when I asked him about these tanks on far side of the river, he said, I'm here to tell you that you are too far from reality.
It seemed to me that this man did not need much of a challenge from the press. As for unwillingness to challenge Iraqi officials directly, yes, I think that maybe we could have been braver than we were, some of us, but if I tell you that two days ago my colleagues were at Abu Kraid (ph) prison and watched the unearthing of the bodies of foreign citizens, mostly Arabs, who were executed in the last three days before American troops arrived at this hotel, and that amongst them were people who were cellmates of Matt McCallister of "Newsday," who was taken to Abu Kraid (ph) from this prison, from this hotel, in the early days of war, and that their offense, those Arabs who were executed, their offense was having possession of Thoraisis (ph) handheld satellite telephones. Matt McCallister was found in position of a handheld satellite telephone.
It gives you some idea of just how fine the line was. If Matt McCallister is still walking around today, it's because he works for an American newspaper, and there must have some realization that to hang or to shoot an American correspondent would expose these people to the full force of American justice.
Unfortunately, the same consideration did not come into play for the Syrians, Arabs, Palestinians, Jordanians who died. So this was a very difficult assignment, a very difficult thing to strike the right balance.
HEMMER: Good to see you are OK.
John, thanks for sharing your story.
BURNS: Thank you so much.
HEMMER: John Burns, reporter for "New York Times." What a story he has to tell. Much appreciated.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 29, 2003 - 09:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Earlier this month, while U.S. forces were fighting their way into Baghdad, reporter John Burns got a midnight visit from Iraqi intelligence Agents. They accused him of being a spy for the CIA, declared him under arrest. They told him at the time, if he did not cooperate, it would -- quote -- "be the end for him." They would take him to a place where he would not return. That's what the Iraqis did. Burns able to go into hiding there in Baghdad. As it turns out, it was the supposed intelligence agents who never came back for him. The reporter for "The New York Times," John Burns, is our guest now live in Baghdad.
John, appreciate your time. Want to know from you, as you go back as to what brought this on, is there anything you can put your finger on?
JOHN BURNS, "NEW YORK TIMES": I think they had a number of us in their sights for some time. Anybody who had written anything at all about terror and fear in Iraq was declared to be an enemy. I think if they didn't act sooner than this, it was because -- to take action against "The New York Times," or for that matter, against CNN or any major American media organization would in their estimation compounded their problems with the United States.
HEMMER: How did you hide out?
BURNS: In the stairwell to begin with. Left me subsequently since they stole my money and equipment and had told me not to leave my room. But then left me in a darkened hotel with no electricity, and with nobody on guard on the door. I made my way to the stairwell, eventually was taken in by first one and then another correspondent here in the Palestine Hotel, who in effect kept me safe. I was able to send messages to officials of the government that I knew, saying to them that these facts were known to "The New York Times" and were known to the United States government, and that any harm that came to me, these officials who were information ministry officials would be answerable for, and that I judged that the penalty that they would be imposed on them would be severe.
And here I am.
Unfortunately, as you know, there a dozen or more journalists who did not survive the war. For me, this was a problem without lasting injury.
HEMMER: There you are, indeed, as we talk to you today. The regime is not there, though; it's over and finished.
If you reported this story at this point and Saddam Hussein was still in power, what would come of you at that point?
BURNS: Well, we all had a problem, and we all dealt with it in different ways. Telling the truth about Saddam Hussein's Iraq was as bigger a challenge as I've ever faced in 30, 35 years in this business, and we all took a position on the spectrum between caution, and if you will, the desire to tell the truth as we saw you the it. Where you struck that position was a purely personal matter.
There is something, I know now, of an inquisition going on in the United States, or a review of that matter as to how brave, how forthright any of us were. There's been some discussion of CNN's coverage, as you know.
My feeling is that, you know, hindsight is 20/20.
What I can tell you is that this most difficult and dangerous place that I ever worked. And I'm disinclined to sit in judgment on those who struck a different position on the spectrum. Everybody had different considerations to keep in mind, and staying in play here, staying here for the war was an important thing.
And no doubt the Columbia Journalism School and other erudite people who look at the way we work will look at this over the years, but my feeling is, in the net, from what I see, that American news coverage of Iraq was pretty good over the last year or so.
HEMMER: You know, John Lee Anderson, a colleague of yours, working in Baghdad, writes for "The New Yorker," he was on our program about two weeks ago, and he was asked the question as to why he did not press the Iraqi information minister on the information he was giving out at the time. He gave us the clear indication that people were disappearing from their hotel rooms in the middle of the night, and a lot of times, you got very cautious and apprehensive about pushing the issue too far.
Did you find yourself in that similar situation, based on your previous answer?
BURNS: I did. I mean, looking back on it, "Chemical Ali" as he became known in the British tabloids, the information minister, who went into a world of, as you know, complete delusion, I think challenging him wasn't really necessary. I think he challenged himself to stand on this roof, with Americans troops clearly visible across the river and their tanks on the morning of April 7th, as I recall, and to look at me and say, when I asked him about these tanks on far side of the river, he said, I'm here to tell you that you are too far from reality.
It seemed to me that this man did not need much of a challenge from the press. As for unwillingness to challenge Iraqi officials directly, yes, I think that maybe we could have been braver than we were, some of us, but if I tell you that two days ago my colleagues were at Abu Kraid (ph) prison and watched the unearthing of the bodies of foreign citizens, mostly Arabs, who were executed in the last three days before American troops arrived at this hotel, and that amongst them were people who were cellmates of Matt McCallister of "Newsday," who was taken to Abu Kraid (ph) from this prison, from this hotel, in the early days of war, and that their offense, those Arabs who were executed, their offense was having possession of Thoraisis (ph) handheld satellite telephones. Matt McCallister was found in position of a handheld satellite telephone.
It gives you some idea of just how fine the line was. If Matt McCallister is still walking around today, it's because he works for an American newspaper, and there must have some realization that to hang or to shoot an American correspondent would expose these people to the full force of American justice.
Unfortunately, the same consideration did not come into play for the Syrians, Arabs, Palestinians, Jordanians who died. So this was a very difficult assignment, a very difficult thing to strike the right balance.
HEMMER: Good to see you are OK.
John, thanks for sharing your story.
BURNS: Thank you so much.
HEMMER: John Burns, reporter for "New York Times." What a story he has to tell. Much appreciated.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
