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American Morning

Interview With Hanan Ashrawi

Aired May 20, 2003 - 07:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the Middle East right now and the president's road map for peace. A question today about whether or not it can survive given the violence we've seen in the past three days. A Monday suicide bombing in a mall in northern Israel was the fifth attack in 48 hours targeting Israelis. In Washington yesterday, the president says he still remains committed to the current peace plan that's on the table.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've got a lot of work to do to convince all of us who care about peace to step up and fight off terror, to cut off the money and to find these people and bring them to justice. Now, we're still on the road to peace. It's just going to be a bumpy road.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Well, the new Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, has denounced the latest violence. He promises to reign in the militants responsible, but can he do it and what level of power and authority does he have?

From Ramallah today, live with us, Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi is back with us on AMERICAN MORNING.

We appreciate your time coming back with us.

And you know what the Israelis want, they want security.

Can these bombers be stopped?

HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: Well, of course they can be stopped if you deal with the real causes, if you deal with the occupation, with Israeli violence, with a situation of tremendous volatility and you don't drive people to desperation. This is absolutely important. But at the same time, Israel is in charge of the West Bank in terms of security. It's an occupying power again. It's controlling every town, every city, every village, every road and therefore if there is a security failure, it's an Israeli occupation security failure.

And at the same time, Abu Mazen is being asked to perform a mission impossible, that is, to reign in, as you say, the opposition and people who resort to violence among the Palestinians while at the same time the Israeli Army is not being reigned in at all. You said last three days of violence, but you forgot that for every day preceding that, there was Israeli violence against Palestinians, anywhere from three to seven or 10 Palestinians were being killed daily by the Israeli troops and this wasn't seen as violence. Only when the Palestinian opposition groups and extremists react and kill Israelis do you see this as violence.

HEMMER: Well, let me stop you here, because the Israelis will counter that -- and we'll hear from the Israeli side in a moment here -- but they're saying if you stop the suicide bombers, they'll pull back from the Gaza Strip.

ASHRAWI: I'm sure.

HEMMER: They'll pull back from these towns in the West Bank that have been surrounded for the better part of 13, almost 14 months right now. Stop the bombings and you'll get the peace and security you want.

Why not go ahead and make the initial step?

ASHRAWI: Oh, I wish we could. Certainly we are trying...

HEMMER: Why can't you?

ASHRAWI: We've launched a public discourse, a public -- because we are not in charge. The Palestinian Authority is not in charge of the West Bank and Gaza. It is the Israeli occupation forces that are. And they are the ones who are using the logic of violence against civilians and they are provoking and inciting counter-violence.

We're trying desperately to stop the violence on both sides. I do not condone any kind of violence, let alone violence against civilians. But you cannot sort of look at the situation in a very unrealistic and illogical way. Of course everybody wants to stop the violence.

It has to stop from the Israeli side and you cannot continue devaluing Palestinian human lives and asking the Palestinians to enter into a civil war without even an acceptance of the road map, without providing a political avenue and alternative. You have to show that violence fails, it does not succeed. But you cannot restrict violence to be used without accountability by the Israeli military occupation and then tell the Palestinians they have to lie down and die quietly.

We have to remove the impetus for violence from both sides. We have to legitimize a political course of action. We have to introduce a whole new dynamic and, first and foremost, Sharon and his government have to accept the road map publicly and have to comply with the requirements on their side.

We have accepted it. We have complied. We have started carrying out the changes needed and Israel is continually avoiding implementation and, of course, rejecting any kind of political alternative.

HEMMER: Hanan Ashrawi live in Ramallah.

That's the view from the Palestinian side.

Live in New York right now, Israel's Consul General, Ambassador Alon Pinkas is my guest now.

Good morning to you, sir.

You hear the accusations coming from Ramallah. Ariel Sharon was expected to be at the White House today. That's been canceled. With that canceled meeting with the president, are the suicide bombers winning right now in this war?

AMB. ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: They're not winning. They'll never win. And I heard very carefully and intentfully what Mrs. Ashrawi was saying. Bill, you've been to the region several times. You've reported from the region. The tragic thing is that the Palestinians have been betrayed by their leadership, by people like Ashrawi.

Let's assume for the sake of conversation that Israel in is charge right now. The Palestinians were in charge in 1994, in '95, in '96, in '97 and '98 and onwards, and yet there were suicide bombers. This is a clear, a clear betrayal of their own cause by their own militants, by their own leadership, that's condoning it.

How could you say that the murder of children and old people and women in a bus in a mall in a pizza parlor is being provoked by the people who are being murdered and slaughtered? I mean I've heard a lot of pathetic and seemingly stupid things in the last two and a half years of violence, but none matches this.

HEMMER: But when your prime minister has to cancel a trip to the White House at a time when both sides say the United States and the president must be engaged in this process in order for it to move forward, when that happens, don't you give a nod to those that are committing the violence in the Middle East on both sides right now and say that they, indeed, are holding the status quo, which at this point is nothing but death and violence for the better part of two years?

PINKAS: Yes, that's a valid question and it's a valid remark, Bill. The prime minister made a decision that because there were threats of suicide bombings -- and, in fact, this morning we still have 56 threats or imminent threats, clear and present threats, as they call them in the professional jargon, of suicide attacks. And he made a decision that at that point in time it is wise, it is responsible and it is, in fact, his duty to stay in the country.

You're right, by canceling a trip to Washington you undermine supposedly a peace process that these people would like to distract and disrupt. Yet this is a long haul war and you know this because you've been there since 9/11. And we have seen it in Casablanca and we have seen it in Ankara today. And we've seen it in Nairobi and we've seen it in Saudi Arabia.

These people have to be demolished and eradicated and if it takes rescheduling a visit to Washington, then so be it.

HEMMER: Ambassador Alon Pinkas, live here in New York, from the Israeli perspective, something that, again, is heating up yet again, as we have seen over the past four or five days running.

Sir, thanks to you, and to Hanan Ashrawi, as well, back in Ramallah.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 20, 2003 - 07:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back to the Middle East right now and the president's road map for peace. A question today about whether or not it can survive given the violence we've seen in the past three days. A Monday suicide bombing in a mall in northern Israel was the fifth attack in 48 hours targeting Israelis. In Washington yesterday, the president says he still remains committed to the current peace plan that's on the table.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've got a lot of work to do to convince all of us who care about peace to step up and fight off terror, to cut off the money and to find these people and bring them to justice. Now, we're still on the road to peace. It's just going to be a bumpy road.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Well, the new Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, has denounced the latest violence. He promises to reign in the militants responsible, but can he do it and what level of power and authority does he have?

From Ramallah today, live with us, Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi is back with us on AMERICAN MORNING.

We appreciate your time coming back with us.

And you know what the Israelis want, they want security.

Can these bombers be stopped?

HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: Well, of course they can be stopped if you deal with the real causes, if you deal with the occupation, with Israeli violence, with a situation of tremendous volatility and you don't drive people to desperation. This is absolutely important. But at the same time, Israel is in charge of the West Bank in terms of security. It's an occupying power again. It's controlling every town, every city, every village, every road and therefore if there is a security failure, it's an Israeli occupation security failure.

And at the same time, Abu Mazen is being asked to perform a mission impossible, that is, to reign in, as you say, the opposition and people who resort to violence among the Palestinians while at the same time the Israeli Army is not being reigned in at all. You said last three days of violence, but you forgot that for every day preceding that, there was Israeli violence against Palestinians, anywhere from three to seven or 10 Palestinians were being killed daily by the Israeli troops and this wasn't seen as violence. Only when the Palestinian opposition groups and extremists react and kill Israelis do you see this as violence.

HEMMER: Well, let me stop you here, because the Israelis will counter that -- and we'll hear from the Israeli side in a moment here -- but they're saying if you stop the suicide bombers, they'll pull back from the Gaza Strip.

ASHRAWI: I'm sure.

HEMMER: They'll pull back from these towns in the West Bank that have been surrounded for the better part of 13, almost 14 months right now. Stop the bombings and you'll get the peace and security you want.

Why not go ahead and make the initial step?

ASHRAWI: Oh, I wish we could. Certainly we are trying...

HEMMER: Why can't you?

ASHRAWI: We've launched a public discourse, a public -- because we are not in charge. The Palestinian Authority is not in charge of the West Bank and Gaza. It is the Israeli occupation forces that are. And they are the ones who are using the logic of violence against civilians and they are provoking and inciting counter-violence.

We're trying desperately to stop the violence on both sides. I do not condone any kind of violence, let alone violence against civilians. But you cannot sort of look at the situation in a very unrealistic and illogical way. Of course everybody wants to stop the violence.

It has to stop from the Israeli side and you cannot continue devaluing Palestinian human lives and asking the Palestinians to enter into a civil war without even an acceptance of the road map, without providing a political avenue and alternative. You have to show that violence fails, it does not succeed. But you cannot restrict violence to be used without accountability by the Israeli military occupation and then tell the Palestinians they have to lie down and die quietly.

We have to remove the impetus for violence from both sides. We have to legitimize a political course of action. We have to introduce a whole new dynamic and, first and foremost, Sharon and his government have to accept the road map publicly and have to comply with the requirements on their side.

We have accepted it. We have complied. We have started carrying out the changes needed and Israel is continually avoiding implementation and, of course, rejecting any kind of political alternative.

HEMMER: Hanan Ashrawi live in Ramallah.

That's the view from the Palestinian side.

Live in New York right now, Israel's Consul General, Ambassador Alon Pinkas is my guest now.

Good morning to you, sir.

You hear the accusations coming from Ramallah. Ariel Sharon was expected to be at the White House today. That's been canceled. With that canceled meeting with the president, are the suicide bombers winning right now in this war?

AMB. ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: They're not winning. They'll never win. And I heard very carefully and intentfully what Mrs. Ashrawi was saying. Bill, you've been to the region several times. You've reported from the region. The tragic thing is that the Palestinians have been betrayed by their leadership, by people like Ashrawi.

Let's assume for the sake of conversation that Israel in is charge right now. The Palestinians were in charge in 1994, in '95, in '96, in '97 and '98 and onwards, and yet there were suicide bombers. This is a clear, a clear betrayal of their own cause by their own militants, by their own leadership, that's condoning it.

How could you say that the murder of children and old people and women in a bus in a mall in a pizza parlor is being provoked by the people who are being murdered and slaughtered? I mean I've heard a lot of pathetic and seemingly stupid things in the last two and a half years of violence, but none matches this.

HEMMER: But when your prime minister has to cancel a trip to the White House at a time when both sides say the United States and the president must be engaged in this process in order for it to move forward, when that happens, don't you give a nod to those that are committing the violence in the Middle East on both sides right now and say that they, indeed, are holding the status quo, which at this point is nothing but death and violence for the better part of two years?

PINKAS: Yes, that's a valid question and it's a valid remark, Bill. The prime minister made a decision that because there were threats of suicide bombings -- and, in fact, this morning we still have 56 threats or imminent threats, clear and present threats, as they call them in the professional jargon, of suicide attacks. And he made a decision that at that point in time it is wise, it is responsible and it is, in fact, his duty to stay in the country.

You're right, by canceling a trip to Washington you undermine supposedly a peace process that these people would like to distract and disrupt. Yet this is a long haul war and you know this because you've been there since 9/11. And we have seen it in Casablanca and we have seen it in Ankara today. And we've seen it in Nairobi and we've seen it in Saudi Arabia.

These people have to be demolished and eradicated and if it takes rescheduling a visit to Washington, then so be it.

HEMMER: Ambassador Alon Pinkas, live here in New York, from the Israeli perspective, something that, again, is heating up yet again, as we have seen over the past four or five days running.

Sir, thanks to you, and to Hanan Ashrawi, as well, back in Ramallah.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com