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American Morning
Interview with two Former United Nations Weapons Inspectors
Aired June 10, 2003 - 07:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: While Congress considers whether to investigate the intelligence that was done before the Iraq war, the White House keeps insisting there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. President Bush yesterday responded to critics who suggest that the threat was exaggerated to justify the war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Iraq had a weapons program. Intelligence throughout the decade showed they had a weapons program. I am absolutely convinced with time we'll find out that they did have a weapons program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Let's talk about the controversy. Two former U.N. inspectors who have searched themselves for weapons in Iraq, from Washington, Terry Taylor, and from London, Garth Whitty.
Gentlemen, good morning, good afternoon in London. Thanks for being with us.
TERRY TAYLOR, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTORS: Good morning.
GARTH WHITTY, FORMER CHEMICAL WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning.
KAGAN: Terry, I'll start with you. Do you think weapons of mass destruction will eventually be found inside of Iraq?
TAYLOR: I think eventually we will find more substantial evidence of their weapons programs. I think the evidence when you take it overall -- the U.N. information that was developed during the 1990s and even the information provided by the inspections more recently. So, I think the balance of the evidence certainly points towards the Iraqis maintaining in some form or another biological, chemical, and I think also a nuclear program going, and also of course as indeed the inspectors did find illegal missile programs.
KAGAN: Garth, it sounds like Terry thinks it's all there. What about you?
WHITTY: I think that there will be something found. The question really is whether it's the residue from the original program or a more recent program. And I have been unconvinced by the evidence in the public arena supporting more recent programs. I have no doubt that there is the residue left from the program in the '80s, much of which was destroyed obviously by UNSCOM during the seven years it was there. But it's inconceivable that there isn't still some of that residue either by oversight on the part of the Iraqis or indeed by design.
KAGAN: So, the question to both of you gentlemen: Where is this stuff? And since it's just an open book, why hasn't it been easier to find it, Terry?
TAYLOR: Well, it's not an open book, of course. Certainly there was a very elaborate concealment plan during 1990s and, of course, I think even for the more recent inspections, not only to hide things from the U.N. inspectors, but, of course, it was a deeply-recessed program, hidden from most of the Iraqi people as well and even the military.
So, it's a deeply-hidden program. I came up against this myself with a very layered and a very elaborate system. So, I'm not surprised it's hard to find. And, of course, there has been element, I'm sure, now of getting rid of the evidence and documentation and so on, particularly by the senior leadership associated with the weapons program to try and distance themselves from more recent events.
KAGAN: But, Garth, do you think that, at least by now, something more would have been found? Would you have expected that?
WHITTY: Well, I would have. I find it extraordinary that nothing has been found. I mean, what we've got is 1,000-odd dedicated inspectors. We also have the coalition forces. And while looking for weapons of mass destruction isn't a primary objective, nevertheless there are hundreds of thousands of eyes and ears.
On top of that, we have the Iraqi population in whose interest it would be to produce these things, I mean, for financial reward if for no other reason. And, of course, in addition to that there are some key members of the regime in custody, in whose interest, once again, it would be to give information that's going to put them in better standing with the U.S. administration.
So, it's inexplicable that nothing has been come across at the moment.
I think the other thing that we have to ask ourselves is, let us assume that the intelligence supporting these programs or indicating these programs was of the high quality that's being suggested, why have those sources of intelligence dried up, and why aren't they saying where the weapons are now, even if they were moved, even if they were covered? One assumes that an element of that intelligence was human sources which still had some access.
KAGAN: Well, and there's different issues here in terms of just the intelligence, but also perhaps there is controversy over the filters they might have gone through, accusations that the administration wasn't hearing the information exactly like they wanted to. Two different places where there is a problem. You have here in the U.S., but also it appears to be a much bigger problem in the U.K.
And, Terry, as I understand it, you're going to be testifying before parliament, where Tony Blair is definitely on the hot seat about making the argument about weapons of mass destruction as justification for war.
TAYLOR: Well, I don't know yet that I'll be testifying. I've been warned that's the case. I think a decision is taken today. I don't know about the inner workings of the intelligence services, because I don't know about that. I can only really comment on the publicly-available information. I think it's very clear there was overwhelming evidence that Iraq had these programs, if you were to look at a balance of probabilities.
And, indeed, you have to look at the Iraqi behavior. For example, their full and so-called final and complete declaration on the 7th of December fell well short of a government or a regime that was meant to be cooperating. Even Dr. Hans Blix made it clear it fell well short. It even under-declared things they had declared previously.
So, I think you have to look at the Iraqi behavior, the overwhelming open evidence, plus the intelligence on which governments on both sides of the Atlantic had to take positions.
KAGAN: And just real quickly as we wrap up, as the Bush administration says and the Pentagon says, they just need more time. Is that is fair? At the same time that they were not willing to give U.N. weapons inspectors back in March.
TAYLOR: Well, the inspections have hardly started. You've got to remember the Iraq survey group has only just got on the ground. There were not thousands of eyes and ears looking for these things over the past few weeks. And so, the Iraq survey group with all of their people, the former UNSCOM inspectors and so on, is only just getting on the ground. I think there's been a very unfortunate delay over this. So, I think we have to wait and see, and see what this group produces.
KAGAN: Terry Taylor, Garth Whitty, gentlemen, thanks for your insight this morning. Appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Inspectors>
Aired June 10, 2003 - 07:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: While Congress considers whether to investigate the intelligence that was done before the Iraq war, the White House keeps insisting there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. President Bush yesterday responded to critics who suggest that the threat was exaggerated to justify the war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Iraq had a weapons program. Intelligence throughout the decade showed they had a weapons program. I am absolutely convinced with time we'll find out that they did have a weapons program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Let's talk about the controversy. Two former U.N. inspectors who have searched themselves for weapons in Iraq, from Washington, Terry Taylor, and from London, Garth Whitty.
Gentlemen, good morning, good afternoon in London. Thanks for being with us.
TERRY TAYLOR, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTORS: Good morning.
GARTH WHITTY, FORMER CHEMICAL WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning.
KAGAN: Terry, I'll start with you. Do you think weapons of mass destruction will eventually be found inside of Iraq?
TAYLOR: I think eventually we will find more substantial evidence of their weapons programs. I think the evidence when you take it overall -- the U.N. information that was developed during the 1990s and even the information provided by the inspections more recently. So, I think the balance of the evidence certainly points towards the Iraqis maintaining in some form or another biological, chemical, and I think also a nuclear program going, and also of course as indeed the inspectors did find illegal missile programs.
KAGAN: Garth, it sounds like Terry thinks it's all there. What about you?
WHITTY: I think that there will be something found. The question really is whether it's the residue from the original program or a more recent program. And I have been unconvinced by the evidence in the public arena supporting more recent programs. I have no doubt that there is the residue left from the program in the '80s, much of which was destroyed obviously by UNSCOM during the seven years it was there. But it's inconceivable that there isn't still some of that residue either by oversight on the part of the Iraqis or indeed by design.
KAGAN: So, the question to both of you gentlemen: Where is this stuff? And since it's just an open book, why hasn't it been easier to find it, Terry?
TAYLOR: Well, it's not an open book, of course. Certainly there was a very elaborate concealment plan during 1990s and, of course, I think even for the more recent inspections, not only to hide things from the U.N. inspectors, but, of course, it was a deeply-recessed program, hidden from most of the Iraqi people as well and even the military.
So, it's a deeply-hidden program. I came up against this myself with a very layered and a very elaborate system. So, I'm not surprised it's hard to find. And, of course, there has been element, I'm sure, now of getting rid of the evidence and documentation and so on, particularly by the senior leadership associated with the weapons program to try and distance themselves from more recent events.
KAGAN: But, Garth, do you think that, at least by now, something more would have been found? Would you have expected that?
WHITTY: Well, I would have. I find it extraordinary that nothing has been found. I mean, what we've got is 1,000-odd dedicated inspectors. We also have the coalition forces. And while looking for weapons of mass destruction isn't a primary objective, nevertheless there are hundreds of thousands of eyes and ears.
On top of that, we have the Iraqi population in whose interest it would be to produce these things, I mean, for financial reward if for no other reason. And, of course, in addition to that there are some key members of the regime in custody, in whose interest, once again, it would be to give information that's going to put them in better standing with the U.S. administration.
So, it's inexplicable that nothing has been come across at the moment.
I think the other thing that we have to ask ourselves is, let us assume that the intelligence supporting these programs or indicating these programs was of the high quality that's being suggested, why have those sources of intelligence dried up, and why aren't they saying where the weapons are now, even if they were moved, even if they were covered? One assumes that an element of that intelligence was human sources which still had some access.
KAGAN: Well, and there's different issues here in terms of just the intelligence, but also perhaps there is controversy over the filters they might have gone through, accusations that the administration wasn't hearing the information exactly like they wanted to. Two different places where there is a problem. You have here in the U.S., but also it appears to be a much bigger problem in the U.K.
And, Terry, as I understand it, you're going to be testifying before parliament, where Tony Blair is definitely on the hot seat about making the argument about weapons of mass destruction as justification for war.
TAYLOR: Well, I don't know yet that I'll be testifying. I've been warned that's the case. I think a decision is taken today. I don't know about the inner workings of the intelligence services, because I don't know about that. I can only really comment on the publicly-available information. I think it's very clear there was overwhelming evidence that Iraq had these programs, if you were to look at a balance of probabilities.
And, indeed, you have to look at the Iraqi behavior. For example, their full and so-called final and complete declaration on the 7th of December fell well short of a government or a regime that was meant to be cooperating. Even Dr. Hans Blix made it clear it fell well short. It even under-declared things they had declared previously.
So, I think you have to look at the Iraqi behavior, the overwhelming open evidence, plus the intelligence on which governments on both sides of the Atlantic had to take positions.
KAGAN: And just real quickly as we wrap up, as the Bush administration says and the Pentagon says, they just need more time. Is that is fair? At the same time that they were not willing to give U.N. weapons inspectors back in March.
TAYLOR: Well, the inspections have hardly started. You've got to remember the Iraq survey group has only just got on the ground. There were not thousands of eyes and ears looking for these things over the past few weeks. And so, the Iraq survey group with all of their people, the former UNSCOM inspectors and so on, is only just getting on the ground. I think there's been a very unfortunate delay over this. So, I think we have to wait and see, and see what this group produces.
KAGAN: Terry Taylor, Garth Whitty, gentlemen, thanks for your insight this morning. Appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Inspectors>
