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American Morning

Dead or Alive, Saddam Hussein Still Powerful Figure

Aired June 16, 2003 - 09:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back to Iraq right now. Four more Americans have been injured today. A military community and a civilian bus fired on by RPGs. The U.S. military now saying they have linked the attacks to loyalists for Saddam Hussein.
Regardless, though, of whether or not Saddam is dead or alive, he still seems to be a very powerful figure in Iraq.

Jane Arraf has more now live in Baghdad -- good afternoon there, Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Bill.

As you mentioned, those two ambushes, two separate attacks on the road north from Baghdad. Now, this has been an area that American soldiers really didn't go through in huge numbers like they did the rest of the country. And it goes all the way up to Saddam's stronghold of Tikrit.

But here in Baghdad, there is still considerable sentiment, surprisingly strong, perhaps, for Saddam and what he represented.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): His face has almost disappeared, but even with Americans in the palaces, Saddam Hussein is impossible to forget and unwise to dismiss. In the Baghdad tea house that a young Saddam used to frequent when he was only dreaming of power, the owner and many of the patrons say they long for his return.

"We talk about him 24 hours a day," says owner Farass Assam (ph). "We always say there's no one like Saddam who can lead this country."

Two months after the end of the war, the former president remains an elusive target. On April 7, the U.S. bombed this house in Baghdad, believing he was there. They're still doing DNA tests to see if he was.

The fear and hope that he might return is kept alive through reported sightings. At the Al Chardaff Tea House (ph), where Baath members secretly met in the 1960s, several people said they saw Saddam after the bombing intended to kill him. Some said they saw him in the street as recently as this week.

Engineer Kamal Anwar (ph) says he and his brother were walking down the street on April 9 when Saddam got out of a car. "He said, 'Do you have weapons? Throw them away.' We threw them. He stood in the middle of us, no guards, nothing. My brother said, 'Sir, won't we see you anymore?' He said, 'No, why wouldn't you see me?'"

Anwar and others said they were waiting for Saddam to return and to return them to a time when gasoline was cheap and the streets were clean and safe.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And that really probably is a lot of this pro-Saddam, pro-Baath Party sentiment, that people really long for those days when they knew what was what and they had jobs and money and there was electricity in the middle of summer. A lot of people really miss that and it may be translating into some messages of support, in some cases, for Saddam himself -- Bill.

HEMMER: Jane Arraf from Baghdad.

More now with Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror."

Con's in London after spending three weeks in Baghdad.

Con, welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING.

There is the book, "King of Terror." I want to talk to you about whether or not these operations under way, Operation Desert Scorpion, Operation Peninsula Strike from the end of last week.

How much of there -- is there a connection right now with the fate of Saddam Hussein tied into this?

CON COUGHLIN, "SADDAM: KING OF TERROR": It's good to be with you, again, Bill.

Well, I think the fate of Saddam is crucial to the future of Iraq. And I personally think that Saddam is alive. And when I was in Iraq, most of the Iraqis I met also believed that Saddam was alive.

And basically, so long as the Iraqi people believe that Saddam is alive, it's going to be very difficult for the coalition forces to move forward because the Iraqi people will fear if they cooperate with the coalition forces and Saddam makes a comeback, as he has in the past, well, then, Saddam will do things against them.

HEMMER: Con, why do you believe this man is so hard to find right now? His two sons are out there. His wife is out there. He must be protected by numerous people. This is not an easy place for him to hide given the amount of American forces there.

Why is it, then, that it is still so elusive?

COUGHLIN: Well, first of all, Bill, we have to remember that throughout his presidency, Saddam hid from the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people never knew where Saddam was at any given time. The second point, Bill, is that during the war and even before the war, Saddam paid a fortune in protection money. The figure I picked up when I was in beginning was $1.3 billion was paid to tribal leaders and other loyalists to look after Saddam in the event of the coalition forces overthrowing him. That's an awful lot of money. That buys an awful lot of protection. And I think that's one of the key reasons why he's proven so elusive.

HEMMER: Yes, for the loyalists who are essentially causing a lot of havoc right now for the U.S. military, how much do you believe right now that Saddam Hussein is behind this?

COUGHLIN: I think Saddam will be involved with this somehow. I mean I don't know precisely how Saddam is operating at the moment. I mean, all I know, all I'm picking up is that Saddam and his two sons and other members, key members of the regime, are still in Iraq. And they have ways and means of liasing Saddam loyalists.

And as Jane Arraf was just saying, Bill, the occupation of Iraq is not popular with the Iraqi forces. This is something that Saddam and his loyalists can exploit. And, of course, we see this with increased attacks on American troops.

HEMMER: Yes, two points that you make after your visit there, the two things that hit you the most are the fear from the Iraqi people -- I want you to explain that a bit more for us, too -- and also the fact that, well, you point out that nothing works when you were there in Baghdad. Nothing like what, electricity, water, etc.?

COUGHLIN: Well, electricity, water, phones. It's impossible to get around the city because of the petrol cues. And I found it very dispiriting. As you know, Bill, I was very much in favor of this war and very much in favor of regime change. But I must say I was rather disappointed to see how Iraq was being run. And I do need to think -- I do think that the coalition forces need to raise their game and get Iraq running again.

And as for the fear of the Iraqi people, well, there's, again, so long as Saddam, rather, the fate of Saddam is unresolved, then the Iraqi people are not going to cooperate with the coalition. I mean this is a really big problem moving forward. And so I think a lot of resources need to be invested in tracking down Saddam and sorting this out once and for all.

HEMMER: Con Coughlin in London.

Good to talk to you again, Con.

Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 16, 2003 - 09:02   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back to Iraq right now. Four more Americans have been injured today. A military community and a civilian bus fired on by RPGs. The U.S. military now saying they have linked the attacks to loyalists for Saddam Hussein.
Regardless, though, of whether or not Saddam is dead or alive, he still seems to be a very powerful figure in Iraq.

Jane Arraf has more now live in Baghdad -- good afternoon there, Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Bill.

As you mentioned, those two ambushes, two separate attacks on the road north from Baghdad. Now, this has been an area that American soldiers really didn't go through in huge numbers like they did the rest of the country. And it goes all the way up to Saddam's stronghold of Tikrit.

But here in Baghdad, there is still considerable sentiment, surprisingly strong, perhaps, for Saddam and what he represented.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): His face has almost disappeared, but even with Americans in the palaces, Saddam Hussein is impossible to forget and unwise to dismiss. In the Baghdad tea house that a young Saddam used to frequent when he was only dreaming of power, the owner and many of the patrons say they long for his return.

"We talk about him 24 hours a day," says owner Farass Assam (ph). "We always say there's no one like Saddam who can lead this country."

Two months after the end of the war, the former president remains an elusive target. On April 7, the U.S. bombed this house in Baghdad, believing he was there. They're still doing DNA tests to see if he was.

The fear and hope that he might return is kept alive through reported sightings. At the Al Chardaff Tea House (ph), where Baath members secretly met in the 1960s, several people said they saw Saddam after the bombing intended to kill him. Some said they saw him in the street as recently as this week.

Engineer Kamal Anwar (ph) says he and his brother were walking down the street on April 9 when Saddam got out of a car. "He said, 'Do you have weapons? Throw them away.' We threw them. He stood in the middle of us, no guards, nothing. My brother said, 'Sir, won't we see you anymore?' He said, 'No, why wouldn't you see me?'"

Anwar and others said they were waiting for Saddam to return and to return them to a time when gasoline was cheap and the streets were clean and safe.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And that really probably is a lot of this pro-Saddam, pro-Baath Party sentiment, that people really long for those days when they knew what was what and they had jobs and money and there was electricity in the middle of summer. A lot of people really miss that and it may be translating into some messages of support, in some cases, for Saddam himself -- Bill.

HEMMER: Jane Arraf from Baghdad.

More now with Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror."

Con's in London after spending three weeks in Baghdad.

Con, welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING.

There is the book, "King of Terror." I want to talk to you about whether or not these operations under way, Operation Desert Scorpion, Operation Peninsula Strike from the end of last week.

How much of there -- is there a connection right now with the fate of Saddam Hussein tied into this?

CON COUGHLIN, "SADDAM: KING OF TERROR": It's good to be with you, again, Bill.

Well, I think the fate of Saddam is crucial to the future of Iraq. And I personally think that Saddam is alive. And when I was in Iraq, most of the Iraqis I met also believed that Saddam was alive.

And basically, so long as the Iraqi people believe that Saddam is alive, it's going to be very difficult for the coalition forces to move forward because the Iraqi people will fear if they cooperate with the coalition forces and Saddam makes a comeback, as he has in the past, well, then, Saddam will do things against them.

HEMMER: Con, why do you believe this man is so hard to find right now? His two sons are out there. His wife is out there. He must be protected by numerous people. This is not an easy place for him to hide given the amount of American forces there.

Why is it, then, that it is still so elusive?

COUGHLIN: Well, first of all, Bill, we have to remember that throughout his presidency, Saddam hid from the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people never knew where Saddam was at any given time. The second point, Bill, is that during the war and even before the war, Saddam paid a fortune in protection money. The figure I picked up when I was in beginning was $1.3 billion was paid to tribal leaders and other loyalists to look after Saddam in the event of the coalition forces overthrowing him. That's an awful lot of money. That buys an awful lot of protection. And I think that's one of the key reasons why he's proven so elusive.

HEMMER: Yes, for the loyalists who are essentially causing a lot of havoc right now for the U.S. military, how much do you believe right now that Saddam Hussein is behind this?

COUGHLIN: I think Saddam will be involved with this somehow. I mean I don't know precisely how Saddam is operating at the moment. I mean, all I know, all I'm picking up is that Saddam and his two sons and other members, key members of the regime, are still in Iraq. And they have ways and means of liasing Saddam loyalists.

And as Jane Arraf was just saying, Bill, the occupation of Iraq is not popular with the Iraqi forces. This is something that Saddam and his loyalists can exploit. And, of course, we see this with increased attacks on American troops.

HEMMER: Yes, two points that you make after your visit there, the two things that hit you the most are the fear from the Iraqi people -- I want you to explain that a bit more for us, too -- and also the fact that, well, you point out that nothing works when you were there in Baghdad. Nothing like what, electricity, water, etc.?

COUGHLIN: Well, electricity, water, phones. It's impossible to get around the city because of the petrol cues. And I found it very dispiriting. As you know, Bill, I was very much in favor of this war and very much in favor of regime change. But I must say I was rather disappointed to see how Iraq was being run. And I do need to think -- I do think that the coalition forces need to raise their game and get Iraq running again.

And as for the fear of the Iraqi people, well, there's, again, so long as Saddam, rather, the fate of Saddam is unresolved, then the Iraqi people are not going to cooperate with the coalition. I mean this is a really big problem moving forward. And so I think a lot of resources need to be invested in tracking down Saddam and sorting this out once and for all.

HEMMER: Con Coughlin in London.

Good to talk to you again, Con.

Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com