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American Morning
Celebration, Condemnation After Supreme Court Decision Regarding Sodomy
Aired June 27, 2003 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: There is celebration and condemnation after a Supreme Court decision that says what gay men and women do behind closed doors is not a crime. The landmark ruling stems from a case in Texas where two men were having sex. They were arrested under a decades old law.
The decision applies to anti-sodomy laws in Texas and 12 other states.
We're going to hear from both sides of this controversial ruling. In New York, Michael Adams is the attorney for Lambda's Legal Defense and Education Fund. And in Washington, the Reverend Rob Schenck, president of the National Clergy Council.
Gentlemen, good morning.
Thanks for being with us.
MICHAEL ADAMS, ATTORNEY, LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE & EDUCATION FUND: Thank you.
REV. ROB SCHENCK, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CLERGY COUNCIL: Good morning.
KAGAN: Michael, let's start with you.
The significance of this ruling. Is this going to open up the floodgates for things like gay marriage and gay adoption all across the land?
ADAMS: Well, there's no question that this decision is a sea change because what happened yesterday is that the -- a quite conservative U.S. Supreme Court embraced gay Americans and said that gay and lesbian people are entitled to the same civil rights as anybody else. And there's also no question that gay people want full equality, which includes the same rights, the same protections as all of the people in this country.
Obviously, every civil rights struggle is a long one and we know that we will be fighting in the courts and legislatures for years to come. But certainly what happened yesterday was profoundly important for gay people and, in fact, for all Americans.
KAGAN: Reverend, let's bring you in here.
Were you surprised by the ruling, a ruling that I understand you say undermines morality and justice?
SCHENCK: Not so much surprised by the actual ruling as by the extent of it. What Justice Kennedy did in his majority opinion was go far beyond the question at hand, which was the arrest of these two individuals, and made it a sweeping endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle. So in our opinion, what the court has done is it has made a very strong statement that morality, that is, right and wrong, no longer matters in the construction of law, and that's what we see as so dangerous about this decision.
KAGAN: So as I understand it, you're not comfortable with the idea that what people do behind closed doors in their homes is their own business and not the business of the state.
SCHENCK: Well, I think this goes far beyond that. In his opinion, Justice Kennedy, and those who joined with him, basically sweep away all the notions, all the concepts of Judeo-Christian morality. In fact, he says so explicitly in the decision. He actually questions Judeo-Christian moral tenets, beliefs, ethics and so on. He actually dismisses that and he even mentions the Wolfenden Report, which was a recommendation to parliament in 1963 in Britain recommending the decriminalization of homosexuality. And the Wolfenden Report also recommended the decriminalization of prostitution.
So you can see where Justice Kennedy's thinking is on this. He's basically saying to abandon all notions of right and wrong when it comes to human sexuality. That's more than a sea change, Michael. That is an ocean change in our concept of right and wrong in our civilization.
KAGAN: Michael, let's bring this back around to the legal argument, and even on the legal perspective, the reverend does make an interesting point in how far the court has come in a relatively short amount of time. It was just back in 1986 that they were upholding a Georgia law that was an anti-sodomy law.
So how does so much change happen so quickly?
ADAMS: I think so much change happens quickly because it's a reflection of how far the American people have become. As gays and lesbians have come out, have made themselves known to their families and friends and neighbors, the American people have come to realize that gay people are just like anybody else, that we know right and wrong just like anybody else, that we have the same values as anybody else and we deserve the same respect as anybody else.
This is, as I mentioned, a very conservative court. But this conservative court recognized what the American people already know, that gay and lesbian people are part of our community, that we are equal parts of our community, that we make the same contributions to our community and therefore we deserve equal respect and legal recognition.
So the court, in a sense, is simply catching up with the American people. KAGAN: Michael Adams, Reverend Bob Schenck, gentlemen, thank you.
Appreciate your perspective on a controversial topic this morning.
ADAMS: Thank you.
SCHENCK: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Regarding Sodomy>
Aired June 27, 2003 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: There is celebration and condemnation after a Supreme Court decision that says what gay men and women do behind closed doors is not a crime. The landmark ruling stems from a case in Texas where two men were having sex. They were arrested under a decades old law.
The decision applies to anti-sodomy laws in Texas and 12 other states.
We're going to hear from both sides of this controversial ruling. In New York, Michael Adams is the attorney for Lambda's Legal Defense and Education Fund. And in Washington, the Reverend Rob Schenck, president of the National Clergy Council.
Gentlemen, good morning.
Thanks for being with us.
MICHAEL ADAMS, ATTORNEY, LAMBDA LEGAL DEFENSE & EDUCATION FUND: Thank you.
REV. ROB SCHENCK, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CLERGY COUNCIL: Good morning.
KAGAN: Michael, let's start with you.
The significance of this ruling. Is this going to open up the floodgates for things like gay marriage and gay adoption all across the land?
ADAMS: Well, there's no question that this decision is a sea change because what happened yesterday is that the -- a quite conservative U.S. Supreme Court embraced gay Americans and said that gay and lesbian people are entitled to the same civil rights as anybody else. And there's also no question that gay people want full equality, which includes the same rights, the same protections as all of the people in this country.
Obviously, every civil rights struggle is a long one and we know that we will be fighting in the courts and legislatures for years to come. But certainly what happened yesterday was profoundly important for gay people and, in fact, for all Americans.
KAGAN: Reverend, let's bring you in here.
Were you surprised by the ruling, a ruling that I understand you say undermines morality and justice?
SCHENCK: Not so much surprised by the actual ruling as by the extent of it. What Justice Kennedy did in his majority opinion was go far beyond the question at hand, which was the arrest of these two individuals, and made it a sweeping endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle. So in our opinion, what the court has done is it has made a very strong statement that morality, that is, right and wrong, no longer matters in the construction of law, and that's what we see as so dangerous about this decision.
KAGAN: So as I understand it, you're not comfortable with the idea that what people do behind closed doors in their homes is their own business and not the business of the state.
SCHENCK: Well, I think this goes far beyond that. In his opinion, Justice Kennedy, and those who joined with him, basically sweep away all the notions, all the concepts of Judeo-Christian morality. In fact, he says so explicitly in the decision. He actually questions Judeo-Christian moral tenets, beliefs, ethics and so on. He actually dismisses that and he even mentions the Wolfenden Report, which was a recommendation to parliament in 1963 in Britain recommending the decriminalization of homosexuality. And the Wolfenden Report also recommended the decriminalization of prostitution.
So you can see where Justice Kennedy's thinking is on this. He's basically saying to abandon all notions of right and wrong when it comes to human sexuality. That's more than a sea change, Michael. That is an ocean change in our concept of right and wrong in our civilization.
KAGAN: Michael, let's bring this back around to the legal argument, and even on the legal perspective, the reverend does make an interesting point in how far the court has come in a relatively short amount of time. It was just back in 1986 that they were upholding a Georgia law that was an anti-sodomy law.
So how does so much change happen so quickly?
ADAMS: I think so much change happens quickly because it's a reflection of how far the American people have become. As gays and lesbians have come out, have made themselves known to their families and friends and neighbors, the American people have come to realize that gay people are just like anybody else, that we know right and wrong just like anybody else, that we have the same values as anybody else and we deserve the same respect as anybody else.
This is, as I mentioned, a very conservative court. But this conservative court recognized what the American people already know, that gay and lesbian people are part of our community, that we are equal parts of our community, that we make the same contributions to our community and therefore we deserve equal respect and legal recognition.
So the court, in a sense, is simply catching up with the American people. KAGAN: Michael Adams, Reverend Bob Schenck, gentlemen, thank you.
Appreciate your perspective on a controversial topic this morning.
ADAMS: Thank you.
SCHENCK: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Regarding Sodomy>
