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American Morning
Thou Shalt Not Have Ten Commandments in Alabama Supreme Courthouse
Aired July 03, 2003 - 08:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A federal appeals court says thou shalt not have the Ten Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse. The state's chief justice, Roy Moore, has been told that a display of the Ten Commandments he put in the court's rotunda -- you see it here -- violates the Constitutional separation of church and state. Moore says he'll fight that decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE ROY MOORE, ALABAMA: We must defend our rights and preserve our Constitution. For federal courts to adopt the agenda of the ACLU and to remove the knowledge of god and morality from our lives is wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: With us now Virginia Beach, Virginia, Justice Moore's attorney, Herb Titus. And here in New York, the president of the American Civil Liberties Union, Nadine Strossen.
Thanks to the both of you for being here this morning.
NADINE STROSSEN, NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL: Good morning.
COLLINS: Nadine, I'd like to start with you.
What is your reaction to Judge Moore's statement yesterday? Is the ACLU being adopted, their agenda being adopted by the federal courts?
STROSSEN: The ACLU, to the contrary, Heidi, has adopted the agenda of the first amendment, the religious liberty guarantees in the first amendment and a century of Supreme Court jurisprudence enforcing those rights against states and state officials. What is at stake here is nothing more or less important than the rule of law itself and the obligation even of a top state official, such as Chief Justice Moore, to honor the higher commands in the first amendment of the United States Constitution.
COLLINS: Mr. Titus, do you agree with that?
HERB TITUS, ATTORNEY FOR ALABAMA CHIEF JUSTICE MOORE: No, I don't. This is a misuse of the establishment clause to impose an unconstitutional religious test upon Chief Justice Moore in violation of his oath to support the Constitution of the United States. Judges are not infallible. Just because a judge renders a ruling, and even if it's approved on appeal, doesn't mean that it's right. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, not a judge opinion.
STROSSEN: This is exactly the same argument that was made by another top government official in Alabama more than a generation ago, Governor George Wallace, when he defied another ruling of a federal court enforcing other individual rights, namely, the right to free and equal desegregated public education.
And I absolutely, and the ACLU absolutely defends the right of Chief Justice Moore as an individual to believe whatever he wants, to practice whatever religious beliefs he wants. But in his capacity as a state government official, he may not impose those beliefs on the other people of Alabama. That violates their precious religious liberty.
COLLINS: Mr. Titus, he's not just an individual, is he? TITUS: This monument doesn't impose anything on anybody. It's not a law, it's a monument, just like a picture in a building or a mural in a building. It doesn't impose anything on anybody. This is one of the fallacies that the ACLU would have you believe, that the Constitution prohibits any kind of statement that might acknowledge god or the sovereignty of god in the affairs of the nation.
STROSSEN: I'm not speaking...
TITUS: If you follow that particular logic, that means then the Declaration of Independence, president proclamations are all unconstitutional because they acknowledge god as the sovereign ruler of the nation.
STROSSEN: That's absolutely untrue and all of those examples were distinguished by the excellent 11th Circuit unanimous opinion. So we're not quoting the ACLU here, we're quoting an opinion of federal judges in Alabama who in turn are quoting many, many Supreme Court decisions in which the court has held that whenever an official act of government, including the imposition of a monument, can be perceived, as a reasonable observer, as government favoritism of religion, that violates the very important first amendment right of all of us to be free from government sponsored or government favored religion. And as the court pointed out in this case, we're not talking only about Christianity or Judeo-Christian values, as some people use that term, but a specific form of the Ten Commandments that is particular to Protestants.
COLLINS: Ms. Strossen...
STROSSEN: So if you are a Catholic...
COLLINS: ... I'm going to have to jump in and let Mr. Titus have the last word, if we could, please.
STROSSEN: OK.
TITUS: Well, maybe the position is really a position in favor of judicial infallibility. We live in a country in which we have a constitution of checks and balances and that means that each official has an oath to the Constitution of the United States, not to court precedence. Court precedence can be contrary to the Constitution. And if they are contrary to the Constitution, they do not deserve to be obeyed.
STROSSEN: That sounds like anarchy, not a rule of law.
COLLINS: That was supposed to be the last word.
From Virginia Beach this morning...
TITUS: Well, it sounds like judicial tyranny if you follow Nadine's logic. It's judicial tyranny.
COLLINS: We thank you so much to the two of you for being here this morning on this discussion.
STROSSEN: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: Justice Roy Moore's attorney, Herb Titus, and the president of the American Civil Liberties Union, Nadine Strossen.
STROSSEN: Thank you, Heidi.
COLLINS: Thanks to both of you once again.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Courthouse>
Aired July 3, 2003 - 08:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A federal appeals court says thou shalt not have the Ten Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse. The state's chief justice, Roy Moore, has been told that a display of the Ten Commandments he put in the court's rotunda -- you see it here -- violates the Constitutional separation of church and state. Moore says he'll fight that decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE ROY MOORE, ALABAMA: We must defend our rights and preserve our Constitution. For federal courts to adopt the agenda of the ACLU and to remove the knowledge of god and morality from our lives is wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: With us now Virginia Beach, Virginia, Justice Moore's attorney, Herb Titus. And here in New York, the president of the American Civil Liberties Union, Nadine Strossen.
Thanks to the both of you for being here this morning.
NADINE STROSSEN, NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL: Good morning.
COLLINS: Nadine, I'd like to start with you.
What is your reaction to Judge Moore's statement yesterday? Is the ACLU being adopted, their agenda being adopted by the federal courts?
STROSSEN: The ACLU, to the contrary, Heidi, has adopted the agenda of the first amendment, the religious liberty guarantees in the first amendment and a century of Supreme Court jurisprudence enforcing those rights against states and state officials. What is at stake here is nothing more or less important than the rule of law itself and the obligation even of a top state official, such as Chief Justice Moore, to honor the higher commands in the first amendment of the United States Constitution.
COLLINS: Mr. Titus, do you agree with that?
HERB TITUS, ATTORNEY FOR ALABAMA CHIEF JUSTICE MOORE: No, I don't. This is a misuse of the establishment clause to impose an unconstitutional religious test upon Chief Justice Moore in violation of his oath to support the Constitution of the United States. Judges are not infallible. Just because a judge renders a ruling, and even if it's approved on appeal, doesn't mean that it's right. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, not a judge opinion.
STROSSEN: This is exactly the same argument that was made by another top government official in Alabama more than a generation ago, Governor George Wallace, when he defied another ruling of a federal court enforcing other individual rights, namely, the right to free and equal desegregated public education.
And I absolutely, and the ACLU absolutely defends the right of Chief Justice Moore as an individual to believe whatever he wants, to practice whatever religious beliefs he wants. But in his capacity as a state government official, he may not impose those beliefs on the other people of Alabama. That violates their precious religious liberty.
COLLINS: Mr. Titus, he's not just an individual, is he? TITUS: This monument doesn't impose anything on anybody. It's not a law, it's a monument, just like a picture in a building or a mural in a building. It doesn't impose anything on anybody. This is one of the fallacies that the ACLU would have you believe, that the Constitution prohibits any kind of statement that might acknowledge god or the sovereignty of god in the affairs of the nation.
STROSSEN: I'm not speaking...
TITUS: If you follow that particular logic, that means then the Declaration of Independence, president proclamations are all unconstitutional because they acknowledge god as the sovereign ruler of the nation.
STROSSEN: That's absolutely untrue and all of those examples were distinguished by the excellent 11th Circuit unanimous opinion. So we're not quoting the ACLU here, we're quoting an opinion of federal judges in Alabama who in turn are quoting many, many Supreme Court decisions in which the court has held that whenever an official act of government, including the imposition of a monument, can be perceived, as a reasonable observer, as government favoritism of religion, that violates the very important first amendment right of all of us to be free from government sponsored or government favored religion. And as the court pointed out in this case, we're not talking only about Christianity or Judeo-Christian values, as some people use that term, but a specific form of the Ten Commandments that is particular to Protestants.
COLLINS: Ms. Strossen...
STROSSEN: So if you are a Catholic...
COLLINS: ... I'm going to have to jump in and let Mr. Titus have the last word, if we could, please.
STROSSEN: OK.
TITUS: Well, maybe the position is really a position in favor of judicial infallibility. We live in a country in which we have a constitution of checks and balances and that means that each official has an oath to the Constitution of the United States, not to court precedence. Court precedence can be contrary to the Constitution. And if they are contrary to the Constitution, they do not deserve to be obeyed.
STROSSEN: That sounds like anarchy, not a rule of law.
COLLINS: That was supposed to be the last word.
From Virginia Beach this morning...
TITUS: Well, it sounds like judicial tyranny if you follow Nadine's logic. It's judicial tyranny.
COLLINS: We thank you so much to the two of you for being here this morning on this discussion.
STROSSEN: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: Justice Roy Moore's attorney, Herb Titus, and the president of the American Civil Liberties Union, Nadine Strossen.
STROSSEN: Thank you, Heidi.
COLLINS: Thanks to both of you once again.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Courthouse>
