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American Morning
'After Saddam'
Aired July 25, 2003 - 07:42 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: There is a new TV documentary giving a unique look at the deadly threats facing the U.S. military every day in Iraq, "After Saddam." It premieres Sunday night on the Discovery Times Channel.
Alison Smale is the deputy foreign editor of "The New York Times," and she is with us now to talk about it on a Friday morning here.
Nice to see you, Alison.
ALISON SMALE, DEPUTY FOREIGN EDITOR, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good morning.
HEMMER: A very interesting documentary and very well done, by the way. Congratulations to you.
SMALE: Thank you so much.
HEMMER: Some argue, though, that the Americans do not grasp how much Iraq does not have. Is that what you found as you scoured the country of Iraq and put this together?
SMALE: I think when this documentary was made, it was May. It was less than a month since the famous toppling of the statue in Baghdad. And what was found was a country in some degree of chaos. The infrastructure was obviously not what everybody had expected. I think when the Pentagon planned to go in there, they thought that they could spare the infrastructure in the bombing, and come in and have a fairly functioning country removed of its sort of top player of leadership. Clearly, the glue that held this society together was Saddam Hussein, and once he was gone from power, although not from people's minds, a lot collapsed in his wake.
HEMMER: What you found in a number of discussions with Iraqis, a variance of opinion. I want to give our viewers a quick sample.
One member describes himself as a member of the Fedayeen militia; now probably in this category of a guerrilla fighter. It doesn't last long, but his attitude about Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We will be the ones to kill the Americans and kick them out of our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: How often and how organized was that voice?
SMALE: It's hard to estimate. I think even the American military can't answer that question, but, clearly, it's organized at least on a regional basis. I think it took until Abizaid testified before Congress and spoke, once he had taken over of Central Command, to say that this was guerrilla warfare outright. But clearly, in certain areas, especially in the center of Iraq where the Sunnies are and where Saddam's support was strongest, there has been quite a bit of organized resistance. Whether it's nationwide, who's to tell?
It's interesting, I think, that there have been attacks in Mosul and around Mosul since the American military announced that Saddam's sons had been killed there. That suggests that there is a degree of organized resistance.
HEMMER: Conversely, on the other hand, you have another man on camera saying, and I'm quoting him now: "I hate Saddam. I want to kill him with my bare hands."
SMALE: Absolutely.
HEMMER: That was on camera.
SMALE: Yes.
HEMMER: You don't hear that all of the time, but you heard it enough, did you not?
SMALE: People who have been in Iraq recently say that there's definitely a degree of sympathy for the Americans and for the British and other troops there, and that people are overwhelmingly glad to be rid of Saddam. But how to organize a society after you've dismantled an authoritarian system, that's a different question.
HEMMER: At the Pentagon, they talk about it as a garden, growing a garden. For democracy to take root, you need a lot of things to come together and allow it to flourish and to grow eventually. Not much time left here, though. But in the documentary, you point out that the Iraqis, what you found anyway, is that they're willing to work with the U.S. This was the early days and early weeks after the war. Is that attitude still overriding?
SMALE: Absolutely. I mean, I think that what the documentary shows very well is how the Iraqis, people like Ahmed Chalabi, expected to take over leadership of the society. They were absolutely shocked in the transition between Garner and Bremer that they were told, no, no, wait a moment. And then when the resistance to the occupation grew and the attacks on Americans increased, in fact, this whole process was speeded up. And on July 13, we had the creation of this leadership council.
HEMMER: Sunday night, 7:00 Eastern.
SMALE: Thank you. HEMMER: Alison Smale from "The New York Times," thank you.
SMALE: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired July 25, 2003 - 07:42 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: There is a new TV documentary giving a unique look at the deadly threats facing the U.S. military every day in Iraq, "After Saddam." It premieres Sunday night on the Discovery Times Channel.
Alison Smale is the deputy foreign editor of "The New York Times," and she is with us now to talk about it on a Friday morning here.
Nice to see you, Alison.
ALISON SMALE, DEPUTY FOREIGN EDITOR, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good morning.
HEMMER: A very interesting documentary and very well done, by the way. Congratulations to you.
SMALE: Thank you so much.
HEMMER: Some argue, though, that the Americans do not grasp how much Iraq does not have. Is that what you found as you scoured the country of Iraq and put this together?
SMALE: I think when this documentary was made, it was May. It was less than a month since the famous toppling of the statue in Baghdad. And what was found was a country in some degree of chaos. The infrastructure was obviously not what everybody had expected. I think when the Pentagon planned to go in there, they thought that they could spare the infrastructure in the bombing, and come in and have a fairly functioning country removed of its sort of top player of leadership. Clearly, the glue that held this society together was Saddam Hussein, and once he was gone from power, although not from people's minds, a lot collapsed in his wake.
HEMMER: What you found in a number of discussions with Iraqis, a variance of opinion. I want to give our viewers a quick sample.
One member describes himself as a member of the Fedayeen militia; now probably in this category of a guerrilla fighter. It doesn't last long, but his attitude about Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We will be the ones to kill the Americans and kick them out of our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: How often and how organized was that voice?
SMALE: It's hard to estimate. I think even the American military can't answer that question, but, clearly, it's organized at least on a regional basis. I think it took until Abizaid testified before Congress and spoke, once he had taken over of Central Command, to say that this was guerrilla warfare outright. But clearly, in certain areas, especially in the center of Iraq where the Sunnies are and where Saddam's support was strongest, there has been quite a bit of organized resistance. Whether it's nationwide, who's to tell?
It's interesting, I think, that there have been attacks in Mosul and around Mosul since the American military announced that Saddam's sons had been killed there. That suggests that there is a degree of organized resistance.
HEMMER: Conversely, on the other hand, you have another man on camera saying, and I'm quoting him now: "I hate Saddam. I want to kill him with my bare hands."
SMALE: Absolutely.
HEMMER: That was on camera.
SMALE: Yes.
HEMMER: You don't hear that all of the time, but you heard it enough, did you not?
SMALE: People who have been in Iraq recently say that there's definitely a degree of sympathy for the Americans and for the British and other troops there, and that people are overwhelmingly glad to be rid of Saddam. But how to organize a society after you've dismantled an authoritarian system, that's a different question.
HEMMER: At the Pentagon, they talk about it as a garden, growing a garden. For democracy to take root, you need a lot of things to come together and allow it to flourish and to grow eventually. Not much time left here, though. But in the documentary, you point out that the Iraqis, what you found anyway, is that they're willing to work with the U.S. This was the early days and early weeks after the war. Is that attitude still overriding?
SMALE: Absolutely. I mean, I think that what the documentary shows very well is how the Iraqis, people like Ahmed Chalabi, expected to take over leadership of the society. They were absolutely shocked in the transition between Garner and Bremer that they were told, no, no, wait a moment. And then when the resistance to the occupation grew and the attacks on Americans increased, in fact, this whole process was speeded up. And on July 13, we had the creation of this leadership council.
HEMMER: Sunday night, 7:00 Eastern.
SMALE: Thank you. HEMMER: Alison Smale from "The New York Times," thank you.
SMALE: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
