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American Morning
Interview With 'Post' Reporter Anthony Shadid
Aired August 04, 2003 - 08:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well the deaths of Uday and Qusay Hussein may have encouraged Iraqis to cooperate with the U.S. military, but informing can be risky business for Iraqis on the street.
"Washington Post" reporter Anthony Shadid has written about the reprisals against Iraqis who have been helping Americans. And he joins us now live this morning from Baghdad.
Thanks so much for being with us today. What motivates these people? Why do they go ahead and want to help out the Americans?
ANTHONY SHADID, "WASHINGTON POST" REPORTER: I think there's a range of incentives you see from informers. Some seem to be motivated by altruistic reasons. They have a vendetta, you could say, against the Ba'athists and they want to help the Americans get rid of the Ba'athists that still remain in their areas. There may be some more material motives the one -- like the reward that you saw going to the informer that tipped off people about Uday and Qusay. You know many informers are being paid. And I think there is an incentive, you know, to help their circumstances and you know, amid a pretty bleak economy right now in Iraq.
In the most probably, you know, along those lines, there's a lot of villagers that suggest that some of these informers are trying to sell their perceived access to the Americans, trying to get money, to get sheep even, to mediate -- act as a mediator between the Americans and the villagers at times.
COLLINS: But talk to us, Anthony, then about the consequences of doing this.
SHADID: Well, I think one of the most -- one of the most graphic examples of that was an incident that happened in a little village called Thuloea (ph) north of Baghdad. There was an informer there that cooperated with the Americans during an operation in June, about 400 people were arrested. And according to villagers, this informer went at the military base where these prisoners were kept and pointed out 15 to 20 people. Villagers quickly learned his identity. And earlier last month, villagers insisted that his family kill him or they would kill members of his family and his family was forced to do so. They -- his father and his brother shot the informer, killed him and buried him before dawn that same day.
COLLINS: Yes, I remember reading that in your article. Unbelievable story there. Tell us why the attacks, at least from what you can see, are a little bit different as far as the Sunni Muslims go, and then different in the Shiite towns.
SHADID: Well, I think you see far more resistance, obviously, in the Sunni areas north of Baghdad. That's traditionally where Saddam Hussein sought his support and that's where the government recruited many of the people for its intelligence services, for the army, you know, for the bureaucracy itself.
I think when you look at the Shiite areas to the south, there still seems to be, you know, a certain level of appreciation that Saddam is gone. But when you kind of look across the board in Iraq, there is a deep frustration and there is, you know, a wish that circumstances were a little bit better. A feeling that the Americans probably promised more than they could deliver. Obviously those feelings are much more acute in the areas north of Baghdad in what's known as the Sunni Muslim Triangle.
COLLINS: Anthony, we did an interview just a little while ago with a journalist from the "New Yorker" and he speaks in his article of death lists that are out there for reprisals, just like we're talking about right now. Have you seen any evidence of something like that?
SHADID: That's right. There is -- there is this campaign and there's, you know, differences on how severe this campaign is, but there's clearly a campaign going on in the areas north of Baghdad and in northern Iraq against these informers. I was in two towns where lists circulated, anywhere from, you know, 5 to 25 names, and on those lists were names of informers and a warning for them to stop cooperating with the Americans or there would be reprisals. In two cities, in Beigi (ph) and Somara (ph), you have seen attacks, anywhere from shootings to grenades thrown at people's houses after their name was on those lists.
COLLINS: Anthony, quickly, the last question for you, just want to know what can the U.S. troops do to protect these people who are helping them gather the information that they need?
SHADID: Well, I think U.S. troops are pretty blunt. I mean anywhere -- everywhere from General Sanchez on down are very blunt that they can't offer -- they cannot offer protection for these people. There are too many informers. The logistics would be too difficult. And for the Americans to offer protection might even get these people in more trouble at a certain level. It would make them more obvious targets and make it clear that they actually are cooperating with the Americans.
COLLINS: All right. "Washington Post" reporter Anthony Shadid, thanks so much this morning.
SHADID: My pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 4, 2003 - 08:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well the deaths of Uday and Qusay Hussein may have encouraged Iraqis to cooperate with the U.S. military, but informing can be risky business for Iraqis on the street.
"Washington Post" reporter Anthony Shadid has written about the reprisals against Iraqis who have been helping Americans. And he joins us now live this morning from Baghdad.
Thanks so much for being with us today. What motivates these people? Why do they go ahead and want to help out the Americans?
ANTHONY SHADID, "WASHINGTON POST" REPORTER: I think there's a range of incentives you see from informers. Some seem to be motivated by altruistic reasons. They have a vendetta, you could say, against the Ba'athists and they want to help the Americans get rid of the Ba'athists that still remain in their areas. There may be some more material motives the one -- like the reward that you saw going to the informer that tipped off people about Uday and Qusay. You know many informers are being paid. And I think there is an incentive, you know, to help their circumstances and you know, amid a pretty bleak economy right now in Iraq.
In the most probably, you know, along those lines, there's a lot of villagers that suggest that some of these informers are trying to sell their perceived access to the Americans, trying to get money, to get sheep even, to mediate -- act as a mediator between the Americans and the villagers at times.
COLLINS: But talk to us, Anthony, then about the consequences of doing this.
SHADID: Well, I think one of the most -- one of the most graphic examples of that was an incident that happened in a little village called Thuloea (ph) north of Baghdad. There was an informer there that cooperated with the Americans during an operation in June, about 400 people were arrested. And according to villagers, this informer went at the military base where these prisoners were kept and pointed out 15 to 20 people. Villagers quickly learned his identity. And earlier last month, villagers insisted that his family kill him or they would kill members of his family and his family was forced to do so. They -- his father and his brother shot the informer, killed him and buried him before dawn that same day.
COLLINS: Yes, I remember reading that in your article. Unbelievable story there. Tell us why the attacks, at least from what you can see, are a little bit different as far as the Sunni Muslims go, and then different in the Shiite towns.
SHADID: Well, I think you see far more resistance, obviously, in the Sunni areas north of Baghdad. That's traditionally where Saddam Hussein sought his support and that's where the government recruited many of the people for its intelligence services, for the army, you know, for the bureaucracy itself.
I think when you look at the Shiite areas to the south, there still seems to be, you know, a certain level of appreciation that Saddam is gone. But when you kind of look across the board in Iraq, there is a deep frustration and there is, you know, a wish that circumstances were a little bit better. A feeling that the Americans probably promised more than they could deliver. Obviously those feelings are much more acute in the areas north of Baghdad in what's known as the Sunni Muslim Triangle.
COLLINS: Anthony, we did an interview just a little while ago with a journalist from the "New Yorker" and he speaks in his article of death lists that are out there for reprisals, just like we're talking about right now. Have you seen any evidence of something like that?
SHADID: That's right. There is -- there is this campaign and there's, you know, differences on how severe this campaign is, but there's clearly a campaign going on in the areas north of Baghdad and in northern Iraq against these informers. I was in two towns where lists circulated, anywhere from, you know, 5 to 25 names, and on those lists were names of informers and a warning for them to stop cooperating with the Americans or there would be reprisals. In two cities, in Beigi (ph) and Somara (ph), you have seen attacks, anywhere from shootings to grenades thrown at people's houses after their name was on those lists.
COLLINS: Anthony, quickly, the last question for you, just want to know what can the U.S. troops do to protect these people who are helping them gather the information that they need?
SHADID: Well, I think U.S. troops are pretty blunt. I mean anywhere -- everywhere from General Sanchez on down are very blunt that they can't offer -- they cannot offer protection for these people. There are too many informers. The logistics would be too difficult. And for the Americans to offer protection might even get these people in more trouble at a certain level. It would make them more obvious targets and make it clear that they actually are cooperating with the Americans.
COLLINS: All right. "Washington Post" reporter Anthony Shadid, thanks so much this morning.
SHADID: My pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
