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American Morning
Survivor's Tale
Aired August 22, 2003 - 09:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Now more on the investigation into Tuesday's suicide bombing in Baghdad. Investigators looking at the possibility that Iraqi security guards at U.N. compound assisted the attackers. This, again, according to the reports we're getting from Rym Brahimi and others with our CNN staff in Baghdad.
Retired Brigadier General David Grange, CNN analyst now with more on this in Chicago.
General, thanks for coming by this morning.
You've been warning about this for weeks now. Why was it such a concern to you about the possibility about double agents working on behalf of the U.S., the U.N. and the Iraqis?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Bill, what you have in any type of operation like this, you transition from combat, from those you fought, to now working with the same people, the remnants of the population that may have been soldiers, may have been working for Saddam's regime, whatever the case may be. And so it's very easy for insurgents, guerrillas, to go ahead and join the ranks of the police force, the civil defense unit, or security guards in infrastructure locations and report back to the insurgency against the coalition forces.
HEMMER: General, here's the difficult thing then. How do you vet the ones you can trust from the ones you can't?
GRANGE: Very difficult, and it's not a perfect solution. You bet them from background checks, but again, they're very cursory. You're doing thousands of people to try to get the police ranks, security forces, filled with the people you need, and then do you it through other human sources, like, do you know this guy? Did he work for the regime? Can he be trusted? Whatever. So it's very difficult, and it's never going to be 100 percent.
HEMMER: And it's not entirely possible to keep it 100 percent, as you mentioned. If that's the case going down the road right now, this has to be a significant concern, not just to Americans working there and the U.N. staff members, also the Iraqis who want to take some sot progress in the future for their own country. You need their cooperation, don't you? in order to make the system better?
GRANGE: Exactly. You have to have it. In fact, if the Iraqi people don't want it, if they don't want to counter the insurgency that's ongoing themselves, it will nerve happen. They have to be a part of it. And so you have in live with this threat. However, you can negate some of those problems by carefully using some of the coalition forces for high-value targets.
HEMMER: Pick up a newspaper today. You see in "The New York Times," you see in "The Washington Post," General John Abizaid said yesterday that terrorism is the No. 1 concern with regard to security in Iraq. A lot of people would look at that from the outside and say, that's a no-brainer, that shouldn't even be a headline, because we've seen it for better than a month, up to three months running.
If that's the case, and you're trying to deal with this from a military standpoint, how does the U.S. change or alter its tactics to keep soldiers alive?
GRANGE: It's counterinsurgency tactics. It's tactics -- now, they're not all -- terrorism is the No. 1 priority. That's probably correct. What they really are, terrorist tactics being used by many different factions, criminals, terrorist organizations, foreign mercenaries and remnants of the regime. They're all using these guerrilla warfare terrorist activities. For instance, going after a civilian target like this the other day. And so, you just have to use counter insurgency tactics, very difficult, you have to work with the population, you have to blend in, do good things for people to save time; you have take down those that oppose the transition.
HEMMER: Watching this from a world away, and you see the developments on a day-to-day basis and hearing the stories of another dead U.S. soldier in Iraq, how are you seeing this play out over the next six months or the next year? What can you forecast, if anything, about when security does come to Iraq, if at all?
GRANGE: Well, the secure environment, which transitions itself into a rule of law. In other words, a security apparatus, whether it's military police, combination thereof, combined with a judiciary system, regulations to run the society, all that has to come together by the international community, the coalition hierarchy, as well as the military. It will take a while. They'll continue to be coalition military deaths. It's to be expected. It's a terrible thing, but it's going to happen, but since those that have already sacrificed to date for that objective, the resolve has to be there to go the distance to accomplish this.
HEMMER: Tough task. General David Grange, thanks, from Chicago -- Soledad,
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, out of the sadness of the Baghdad bombing comes a story of undescribable joy. A New York woman was believed to be buried in the rubble of the U.N. building was given up for dead. Marilyn Manuel's story was already making funeral arrangements when they received a call in the middle of the night that eerily, but very happily turned it all around. The U.N. staffer was calling to say she was fine and that she'd only suffered minor injuries. The family joins me now. Marilyn husband, Benjamin Manuel, their daughter, Vanessa, their sons Vladimir and Frederick, also called Eric, right.
Nice to have you. Thanks for joining us.
I cannot even imagine the roller coaster of emotions that you have gone through in the last 24 hours.
Vladimir, let's start with you. You obviously had to be devastated when you first saw the pictures, the horrible pictures, and the people rushing around outside the U.N. headquarters. What went through your mind? You knew your mom was likely inside.
VLADIMIR MANUEL, MARILYN'S SON: Well, after September 11, I guess in this day and age, you just hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I didn't want to feel anything at that point until I heard anything that was coming from some official news.
O'BRIEN: And from the official news was that I'm sorry, but your mother has died? They said she was dead?
So, Eric, then you get a phone call in the middle of the night, and it's your mother. What was -- what was that like? And what did she have to say?
FREDERICK MANUEL, MARILYN'S SON: Well, it was amazing. My sister and I had answered the phone, and the voice was strong, but the signal was weak. And we couldn't hear her, I said, hello, hello. She basically said, Rick, it's mom. And I'm like, who? Mom? I know. And once I said that, basically everyone came running out.
O'BRIEN: Did they think you are completely lost it? Because -- I mean -- you were told she was dead, and -- you're talking to someone on the phone, you're saying it's mom. Or did finally the signal get strong enough that you said, oh, my God, she's alive, she's OK.
VANESSA MANUEL, MARILYN'S DAUGHTER: Not Eric. He's a very balanced person. I don't think he ever lost it. He's a rock.
O'BRIEN: You came in from Hawaii to help the family make funeral arrangements. Did your mom tell you what happened? Did she explain how show got out of the building? You must have been throwing questions at her?
V. MANUEL: No actually, when we heard her voice it was very clear. We just wanted to make sure we told her, we love you. It was like a chance to say what you want to say even though we say it to each other all the time, but with more fervor and more meaning, and we just said we love you very much, we love you, just get home. It wasn't like, you know, how did you get out? We didn't want to quiz her or anything.
O'BRIEN: Did she know you all had been told that she was dead?
V. MANUEL: No. I don't think she an indication of what she's been told, or that she's aware outside of what's happened to, you know, I guess to the events of that day, and especially, of course, with the announcements with regards to her passing.
O'BRIEN: How about the passing of Sergio De Millo? Your mother was an aide to him, and he was described by everyone as being a truly remarkable person. I have to assume they were close, and that she -- in fact, I believe he was who convinced her to come out and work. Does she know that he's dead?
V. MANUEL: I'm not sure if she is. But, yes -- I'm not sure that she's aware.
O'BRIEN: Do you know how your wife was identified mistakenly as being deceased?
BENJAMIN MANUEL, MARILYN'S HUSBAND: No. I just happen to know when people from the U.N. came to our house, that was Tuesday afternoon. I saw them inside the house. I came back from the office, and I didn't know what happened, during the day, you know. But Eric told me that they are from the U.N. They would like to talk to you...
O'BRIEN: And it's bad news.
B. MANUEL: And it's really bad news, but I told them, I don't believe this. I want to see the facts. I want to see her. I don't believe you. I don't believe. That's all I did say.
O'BRIEN: Was there any point where you did believe it, before she called or -- when she called, did you say, you see? I see, I told you I didn't believe it, and there she is on the phone now?
B. MANUEL: Oh, and then -- that -- when she called, they only talk to my two kids, OK, and she wasn't able to talk to me after, because they said the nurse taking care of her in the hospital. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which hospital? They got on the line, and then they said, according to Eric, she was talking with the desk nurse and she said, your mom is fine, your mom is fine, your mom is fine. That's it.
O'BRIEN: Tell me a little bit about the condition, your mother is in. I mean, she's fine, but you don't know anything more than that? I mean, she said she sounded OK?
F. MANUEL: Well, she's healthy. She's doing well.
O'BRIEN: When will she come back to the United States?
V. MANUEL: The exact date, we don't know.
O'BRIEN: Can't be too soon, right?
F. MANUEL: Can't be too soon. She's healing. It was a bomb blast.
O'BRIEN: We are so glad to hear this news for you. I've got to tell you, we are thrilled for you. It's been so much bad news, glad to have stories like this to report.
V. MANUEL: You've really shown us that compassionate people, that friends and family who have come to us from everywhere, I mean, literally everywhere around the globe. You know, we knew my mom touched a lot of lives, and she -- we're so proud of her. You know we're just -- we're so proud of her, and we are amazed that people have really come together and prayed for the best for us.
O'BRIEN: What a blessing for your whole family. Congratulations to you, and we look forward to that being reunited with your mom. That's great news -- Bill.
V. MANUEL: Thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 22, 2003 - 09:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Now more on the investigation into Tuesday's suicide bombing in Baghdad. Investigators looking at the possibility that Iraqi security guards at U.N. compound assisted the attackers. This, again, according to the reports we're getting from Rym Brahimi and others with our CNN staff in Baghdad.
Retired Brigadier General David Grange, CNN analyst now with more on this in Chicago.
General, thanks for coming by this morning.
You've been warning about this for weeks now. Why was it such a concern to you about the possibility about double agents working on behalf of the U.S., the U.N. and the Iraqis?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Bill, what you have in any type of operation like this, you transition from combat, from those you fought, to now working with the same people, the remnants of the population that may have been soldiers, may have been working for Saddam's regime, whatever the case may be. And so it's very easy for insurgents, guerrillas, to go ahead and join the ranks of the police force, the civil defense unit, or security guards in infrastructure locations and report back to the insurgency against the coalition forces.
HEMMER: General, here's the difficult thing then. How do you vet the ones you can trust from the ones you can't?
GRANGE: Very difficult, and it's not a perfect solution. You bet them from background checks, but again, they're very cursory. You're doing thousands of people to try to get the police ranks, security forces, filled with the people you need, and then do you it through other human sources, like, do you know this guy? Did he work for the regime? Can he be trusted? Whatever. So it's very difficult, and it's never going to be 100 percent.
HEMMER: And it's not entirely possible to keep it 100 percent, as you mentioned. If that's the case going down the road right now, this has to be a significant concern, not just to Americans working there and the U.N. staff members, also the Iraqis who want to take some sot progress in the future for their own country. You need their cooperation, don't you? in order to make the system better?
GRANGE: Exactly. You have to have it. In fact, if the Iraqi people don't want it, if they don't want to counter the insurgency that's ongoing themselves, it will nerve happen. They have to be a part of it. And so you have in live with this threat. However, you can negate some of those problems by carefully using some of the coalition forces for high-value targets.
HEMMER: Pick up a newspaper today. You see in "The New York Times," you see in "The Washington Post," General John Abizaid said yesterday that terrorism is the No. 1 concern with regard to security in Iraq. A lot of people would look at that from the outside and say, that's a no-brainer, that shouldn't even be a headline, because we've seen it for better than a month, up to three months running.
If that's the case, and you're trying to deal with this from a military standpoint, how does the U.S. change or alter its tactics to keep soldiers alive?
GRANGE: It's counterinsurgency tactics. It's tactics -- now, they're not all -- terrorism is the No. 1 priority. That's probably correct. What they really are, terrorist tactics being used by many different factions, criminals, terrorist organizations, foreign mercenaries and remnants of the regime. They're all using these guerrilla warfare terrorist activities. For instance, going after a civilian target like this the other day. And so, you just have to use counter insurgency tactics, very difficult, you have to work with the population, you have to blend in, do good things for people to save time; you have take down those that oppose the transition.
HEMMER: Watching this from a world away, and you see the developments on a day-to-day basis and hearing the stories of another dead U.S. soldier in Iraq, how are you seeing this play out over the next six months or the next year? What can you forecast, if anything, about when security does come to Iraq, if at all?
GRANGE: Well, the secure environment, which transitions itself into a rule of law. In other words, a security apparatus, whether it's military police, combination thereof, combined with a judiciary system, regulations to run the society, all that has to come together by the international community, the coalition hierarchy, as well as the military. It will take a while. They'll continue to be coalition military deaths. It's to be expected. It's a terrible thing, but it's going to happen, but since those that have already sacrificed to date for that objective, the resolve has to be there to go the distance to accomplish this.
HEMMER: Tough task. General David Grange, thanks, from Chicago -- Soledad,
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, out of the sadness of the Baghdad bombing comes a story of undescribable joy. A New York woman was believed to be buried in the rubble of the U.N. building was given up for dead. Marilyn Manuel's story was already making funeral arrangements when they received a call in the middle of the night that eerily, but very happily turned it all around. The U.N. staffer was calling to say she was fine and that she'd only suffered minor injuries. The family joins me now. Marilyn husband, Benjamin Manuel, their daughter, Vanessa, their sons Vladimir and Frederick, also called Eric, right.
Nice to have you. Thanks for joining us.
I cannot even imagine the roller coaster of emotions that you have gone through in the last 24 hours.
Vladimir, let's start with you. You obviously had to be devastated when you first saw the pictures, the horrible pictures, and the people rushing around outside the U.N. headquarters. What went through your mind? You knew your mom was likely inside.
VLADIMIR MANUEL, MARILYN'S SON: Well, after September 11, I guess in this day and age, you just hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I didn't want to feel anything at that point until I heard anything that was coming from some official news.
O'BRIEN: And from the official news was that I'm sorry, but your mother has died? They said she was dead?
So, Eric, then you get a phone call in the middle of the night, and it's your mother. What was -- what was that like? And what did she have to say?
FREDERICK MANUEL, MARILYN'S SON: Well, it was amazing. My sister and I had answered the phone, and the voice was strong, but the signal was weak. And we couldn't hear her, I said, hello, hello. She basically said, Rick, it's mom. And I'm like, who? Mom? I know. And once I said that, basically everyone came running out.
O'BRIEN: Did they think you are completely lost it? Because -- I mean -- you were told she was dead, and -- you're talking to someone on the phone, you're saying it's mom. Or did finally the signal get strong enough that you said, oh, my God, she's alive, she's OK.
VANESSA MANUEL, MARILYN'S DAUGHTER: Not Eric. He's a very balanced person. I don't think he ever lost it. He's a rock.
O'BRIEN: You came in from Hawaii to help the family make funeral arrangements. Did your mom tell you what happened? Did she explain how show got out of the building? You must have been throwing questions at her?
V. MANUEL: No actually, when we heard her voice it was very clear. We just wanted to make sure we told her, we love you. It was like a chance to say what you want to say even though we say it to each other all the time, but with more fervor and more meaning, and we just said we love you very much, we love you, just get home. It wasn't like, you know, how did you get out? We didn't want to quiz her or anything.
O'BRIEN: Did she know you all had been told that she was dead?
V. MANUEL: No. I don't think she an indication of what she's been told, or that she's aware outside of what's happened to, you know, I guess to the events of that day, and especially, of course, with the announcements with regards to her passing.
O'BRIEN: How about the passing of Sergio De Millo? Your mother was an aide to him, and he was described by everyone as being a truly remarkable person. I have to assume they were close, and that she -- in fact, I believe he was who convinced her to come out and work. Does she know that he's dead?
V. MANUEL: I'm not sure if she is. But, yes -- I'm not sure that she's aware.
O'BRIEN: Do you know how your wife was identified mistakenly as being deceased?
BENJAMIN MANUEL, MARILYN'S HUSBAND: No. I just happen to know when people from the U.N. came to our house, that was Tuesday afternoon. I saw them inside the house. I came back from the office, and I didn't know what happened, during the day, you know. But Eric told me that they are from the U.N. They would like to talk to you...
O'BRIEN: And it's bad news.
B. MANUEL: And it's really bad news, but I told them, I don't believe this. I want to see the facts. I want to see her. I don't believe you. I don't believe. That's all I did say.
O'BRIEN: Was there any point where you did believe it, before she called or -- when she called, did you say, you see? I see, I told you I didn't believe it, and there she is on the phone now?
B. MANUEL: Oh, and then -- that -- when she called, they only talk to my two kids, OK, and she wasn't able to talk to me after, because they said the nurse taking care of her in the hospital. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which hospital? They got on the line, and then they said, according to Eric, she was talking with the desk nurse and she said, your mom is fine, your mom is fine, your mom is fine. That's it.
O'BRIEN: Tell me a little bit about the condition, your mother is in. I mean, she's fine, but you don't know anything more than that? I mean, she said she sounded OK?
F. MANUEL: Well, she's healthy. She's doing well.
O'BRIEN: When will she come back to the United States?
V. MANUEL: The exact date, we don't know.
O'BRIEN: Can't be too soon, right?
F. MANUEL: Can't be too soon. She's healing. It was a bomb blast.
O'BRIEN: We are so glad to hear this news for you. I've got to tell you, we are thrilled for you. It's been so much bad news, glad to have stories like this to report.
V. MANUEL: You've really shown us that compassionate people, that friends and family who have come to us from everywhere, I mean, literally everywhere around the globe. You know, we knew my mom touched a lot of lives, and she -- we're so proud of her. You know we're just -- we're so proud of her, and we are amazed that people have really come together and prayed for the best for us.
O'BRIEN: What a blessing for your whole family. Congratulations to you, and we look forward to that being reunited with your mom. That's great news -- Bill.
V. MANUEL: Thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
