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American Morning
Hamas Vowing Revenge
Aired August 25, 2003 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: To the Middle East right now, Gaza. The Israeli airstrike that killed four members of Hamas. The Islamic militant group vowing revenge today and Palestinian militants firing at least four rockets at a Jewish settlement south of Gaza City.
Michael Holmes by way of video phone with the latest now from Gaza today -- Michael, good afternoon there.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi to you, Bill.
Yes, I can report to you some other news, as well. Overnight, a few hours ago, Palestinian sources are telling us that three militants were approaching a settlement near Rafah in southern Gaza and they got into a gun battle with Israeli troops and were themselves killed. The IDF version, the Israeli military version is that the militants fired anti-tank missiles and several rockets at an IDF military post near the settlement. There was return fire. The IDF doesn't claim any casualties. However, Palestinian sources tell us that three militants were killed.
Now, of course, this follows a very bloody night here in Gaza, when that missile strike happened, it hit four Hamas military wing members, including one very senior one who was, according to Israel, a chief coordinator of operations between Gaza and the West Bank.
He was on the Israeli most wanted list and he was killed by this missile strike, along with three other Hamas members. Eight bystanders wounded when the missile slammed into the group. We're told that they were having a meeting in a vacant lot near the beach.
The funeral has now ended for those men. Two were buried here in Gaza City, two were from Rafah in the south. They were buried there.
Now, I can tell you that the Hamas line is as strident as it was after the missile attack on Ismail Abu Shanab, which you'll remember happened just a couple of days ago. Hamas vowing revenge in a message on their military wing Web site, saying the response to the Israeli crimes will come, it is a matter of time.
Israel, for its part, saying the Palestinian Authority just has not moved fast enough, hard enough, nor have the right people in the military wings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Israel will continue to seek out militants at the time and place of its choosing.
What does this mean for the Palestinian Authority? Well, Bill, we had a statement from a senior security source who said the Israelis aren't helping us. We can't face our people as well as the militants -- Bill.
HEMMER: Michael Holmes in Gaza.
Thanks for that.
That latest violence cannot help but have a detrimental effect right now, at last in the short-term, for that Mideast road map for peace.
Robert Hunter, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO, now a senior adviser with the non-profit research and analysis institution Rand, is our guest today in D.C.
Mr. Ambassador, good morning.
Nice to have you here.
AMB. ROBERT HUNTER, SENIOR ADVISER, RAND: Good morning to you.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
HEMMER: Senator Richard Lugar offered up a tantalizing comment yesterday with Wolf Blitzer on "Late Edition." He is suggesting U.S. military involvement possibly at some point in the Middle East.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R-IA), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: If we're serious about having a situation of stability, a very direct action, I think, is going to be required.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, U.S. military involvement going after Hamas, Islamic Jihad, these other groups? Is that what you're saying? LUGAR: That has to be a potential possibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Mr. Ambassador, how serious is that consideration right now?
HUNTER: I think it's clear that if, indeed, we can get to peace between Israel and Palestine, there needs to be an outside force that's led by the United States, just as we've done that between, say, Israel and Egypt. Today, however, there's a clear implication of doing that.
First, what can an outside force do that Israel is unable to do itself? I doubt militarily there's much difference. Secondly, as soon as you bring in any outside force, you're begging the question of what the final settlement will look like. Otherwise, quite frankly, you just have Americans replacing Israelis... HEMMER: But Mr. Ambassador...
HUNTER: ... as being targets.
HEMMER: ... I think what the senator is suggesting is that maybe U.S. forces actually go after groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad long before there's a peace deal. Is that a serious consideration?
HUNTER: Well, we could do that, but we'd have to recognize that Americans would get killed. We probably wouldn't be much more effective than the Israelis and everybody in the Middle East would be looking to the United States to say here is where this process comes out. What about the settlements? What about where the borders are drawn? What about Jerusalem? You can't do a force in there of outsiders unless you get those questions resolved, as well.
That's why I think we have to do two things. One, tragically, we're going to have to accept that the enemies of peace will continue the violence right until the last moment. That's what they do. That's what this is about. This is to try to blow up the peace process.
Secondly, we need to have a serious effort at the highest level -- we have a good negotiator there now, but nobody ever heard of him, I regret to say about Ambassador Wolf. You need somebody really senior, let's say a former secretary of state, Jim Baker, a former national security adviser; a Brent Scowcroft; a former senator, somebody very serious to show that the president really is going to push this forward and then to do it and to do it fast.
Put Americans there, in the short-term, it just means Americans get killed.
HEMMER: Secretary Powell said the possibility right now exists that this Middle East road map could fall off the cliff, his words from last week while he was at the U.N. You say, though, so much of terrorism happens at the moment of hope.
HUNTER: That's right.
HEMMER: Where did you see hope prior to last Tuesday's bombing in Jerusalem?
HUNTER: Well, what happened is the Israeli government was about to turn over control of two West Bank cities to the Palestinian Authority. Hamas, which is in a civil war with the Palestinian Authority, blew that up. It worked. It's been working like that for 20 years. What we have to do is drive this thing fast to as much of a conclusion as we can, as the United States and the others can engineer. We have a strategic stake in that. Israel has a strategic stake, as well as a moral and personal stake, and so do the Palestinians.
We're embarked in this. We have to up the pressure, up the effort to try to get it all the way through to a conclusion because otherwise we're just going to see this cycle of violence going on and on and on.
HEMMER: One other thought here. The "L.A. Times," a rather interesting story today. It talks about the security personnel for the Palestinian side. It says it comprises about 60,000 men. But two thirds of the 60,000 figure, about 40,000, are under the control of Yasser Arafat, and not the new man in charge, Mahmoud Abbas.
If that's the case, if that's true, who is in charge? Who does have the power again on the Palestinian side? Can we say it is Yasser Arafat and underline it and say that's it?
HUNTER: Well, there is a struggle for power, both within Fatah, within the wing that has both the prime minister, the new man now, the new head, Mr. Abbas, and also between him and Yasser Arafat. Then there's a struggle between them and Hamas and other groups.
The basic thing is we have to change the name of the game. We have to change the basic direction. And that means an intensification of what the United States and others do to try to drive this to an end.
What Secretary of State Powell said the other day was exactly right, if, indeed, the road map comes to an end, that means falling off a cliff. It can't be allowed to happen. That means more involvement by the United States with the prospect at some point of American troops, troops of NATO and others. But not now. Not unless you know exactly where you're going to come out. Because otherwise no matter which side you seem to be favoring, the other side is going the oppose you and frankly American soldiers will just get killed, like Israelis get killed. And I'm not so sure we're ready for that, nor do I think we have to do it if we upgrade, drive forward the diplomacy with a very serious, top level led team, visibly backed by the president every day, whether it's the national security adviser who goes out, somebody.
This is the moment of truth for everybody, including the United States.
HEMMER: Robert Hunter, thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
Good to talk to you in Washington.
HUNTER: Thank you.
HEMMER: Sure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 25, 2003 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: To the Middle East right now, Gaza. The Israeli airstrike that killed four members of Hamas. The Islamic militant group vowing revenge today and Palestinian militants firing at least four rockets at a Jewish settlement south of Gaza City.
Michael Holmes by way of video phone with the latest now from Gaza today -- Michael, good afternoon there.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi to you, Bill.
Yes, I can report to you some other news, as well. Overnight, a few hours ago, Palestinian sources are telling us that three militants were approaching a settlement near Rafah in southern Gaza and they got into a gun battle with Israeli troops and were themselves killed. The IDF version, the Israeli military version is that the militants fired anti-tank missiles and several rockets at an IDF military post near the settlement. There was return fire. The IDF doesn't claim any casualties. However, Palestinian sources tell us that three militants were killed.
Now, of course, this follows a very bloody night here in Gaza, when that missile strike happened, it hit four Hamas military wing members, including one very senior one who was, according to Israel, a chief coordinator of operations between Gaza and the West Bank.
He was on the Israeli most wanted list and he was killed by this missile strike, along with three other Hamas members. Eight bystanders wounded when the missile slammed into the group. We're told that they were having a meeting in a vacant lot near the beach.
The funeral has now ended for those men. Two were buried here in Gaza City, two were from Rafah in the south. They were buried there.
Now, I can tell you that the Hamas line is as strident as it was after the missile attack on Ismail Abu Shanab, which you'll remember happened just a couple of days ago. Hamas vowing revenge in a message on their military wing Web site, saying the response to the Israeli crimes will come, it is a matter of time.
Israel, for its part, saying the Palestinian Authority just has not moved fast enough, hard enough, nor have the right people in the military wings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Israel will continue to seek out militants at the time and place of its choosing.
What does this mean for the Palestinian Authority? Well, Bill, we had a statement from a senior security source who said the Israelis aren't helping us. We can't face our people as well as the militants -- Bill.
HEMMER: Michael Holmes in Gaza.
Thanks for that.
That latest violence cannot help but have a detrimental effect right now, at last in the short-term, for that Mideast road map for peace.
Robert Hunter, a former U.S. ambassador to NATO, now a senior adviser with the non-profit research and analysis institution Rand, is our guest today in D.C.
Mr. Ambassador, good morning.
Nice to have you here.
AMB. ROBERT HUNTER, SENIOR ADVISER, RAND: Good morning to you.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
HEMMER: Senator Richard Lugar offered up a tantalizing comment yesterday with Wolf Blitzer on "Late Edition." He is suggesting U.S. military involvement possibly at some point in the Middle East.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R-IA), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: If we're serious about having a situation of stability, a very direct action, I think, is going to be required.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, U.S. military involvement going after Hamas, Islamic Jihad, these other groups? Is that what you're saying? LUGAR: That has to be a potential possibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Mr. Ambassador, how serious is that consideration right now?
HUNTER: I think it's clear that if, indeed, we can get to peace between Israel and Palestine, there needs to be an outside force that's led by the United States, just as we've done that between, say, Israel and Egypt. Today, however, there's a clear implication of doing that.
First, what can an outside force do that Israel is unable to do itself? I doubt militarily there's much difference. Secondly, as soon as you bring in any outside force, you're begging the question of what the final settlement will look like. Otherwise, quite frankly, you just have Americans replacing Israelis... HEMMER: But Mr. Ambassador...
HUNTER: ... as being targets.
HEMMER: ... I think what the senator is suggesting is that maybe U.S. forces actually go after groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad long before there's a peace deal. Is that a serious consideration?
HUNTER: Well, we could do that, but we'd have to recognize that Americans would get killed. We probably wouldn't be much more effective than the Israelis and everybody in the Middle East would be looking to the United States to say here is where this process comes out. What about the settlements? What about where the borders are drawn? What about Jerusalem? You can't do a force in there of outsiders unless you get those questions resolved, as well.
That's why I think we have to do two things. One, tragically, we're going to have to accept that the enemies of peace will continue the violence right until the last moment. That's what they do. That's what this is about. This is to try to blow up the peace process.
Secondly, we need to have a serious effort at the highest level -- we have a good negotiator there now, but nobody ever heard of him, I regret to say about Ambassador Wolf. You need somebody really senior, let's say a former secretary of state, Jim Baker, a former national security adviser; a Brent Scowcroft; a former senator, somebody very serious to show that the president really is going to push this forward and then to do it and to do it fast.
Put Americans there, in the short-term, it just means Americans get killed.
HEMMER: Secretary Powell said the possibility right now exists that this Middle East road map could fall off the cliff, his words from last week while he was at the U.N. You say, though, so much of terrorism happens at the moment of hope.
HUNTER: That's right.
HEMMER: Where did you see hope prior to last Tuesday's bombing in Jerusalem?
HUNTER: Well, what happened is the Israeli government was about to turn over control of two West Bank cities to the Palestinian Authority. Hamas, which is in a civil war with the Palestinian Authority, blew that up. It worked. It's been working like that for 20 years. What we have to do is drive this thing fast to as much of a conclusion as we can, as the United States and the others can engineer. We have a strategic stake in that. Israel has a strategic stake, as well as a moral and personal stake, and so do the Palestinians.
We're embarked in this. We have to up the pressure, up the effort to try to get it all the way through to a conclusion because otherwise we're just going to see this cycle of violence going on and on and on.
HEMMER: One other thought here. The "L.A. Times," a rather interesting story today. It talks about the security personnel for the Palestinian side. It says it comprises about 60,000 men. But two thirds of the 60,000 figure, about 40,000, are under the control of Yasser Arafat, and not the new man in charge, Mahmoud Abbas.
If that's the case, if that's true, who is in charge? Who does have the power again on the Palestinian side? Can we say it is Yasser Arafat and underline it and say that's it?
HUNTER: Well, there is a struggle for power, both within Fatah, within the wing that has both the prime minister, the new man now, the new head, Mr. Abbas, and also between him and Yasser Arafat. Then there's a struggle between them and Hamas and other groups.
The basic thing is we have to change the name of the game. We have to change the basic direction. And that means an intensification of what the United States and others do to try to drive this to an end.
What Secretary of State Powell said the other day was exactly right, if, indeed, the road map comes to an end, that means falling off a cliff. It can't be allowed to happen. That means more involvement by the United States with the prospect at some point of American troops, troops of NATO and others. But not now. Not unless you know exactly where you're going to come out. Because otherwise no matter which side you seem to be favoring, the other side is going the oppose you and frankly American soldiers will just get killed, like Israelis get killed. And I'm not so sure we're ready for that, nor do I think we have to do it if we upgrade, drive forward the diplomacy with a very serious, top level led team, visibly backed by the president every day, whether it's the national security adviser who goes out, somebody.
This is the moment of truth for everybody, including the United States.
HEMMER: Robert Hunter, thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
Good to talk to you in Washington.
HUNTER: Thank you.
HEMMER: Sure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
