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American Morning
Families of Columbine Victims Angry Judge Ordered Destruction of Depositions
Aired September 29, 2003 - 08:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Families of the Columbine victims are angry that a judge has ordered the destruction of depositions given by parents of the killers. The statements from the parents of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were part of a wrongful death lawsuit. The judge's ruling said, and quoting now, "The court has considered that there would appear to be no further purpose, need or use for any of the five depositions to remain in existence because the case has been settled."
Judy Brown's son witnessed the Columbine shooting. He survived. Nearly a year before the tragedy, though, she warned police about Eric Harris' violent nature toward her son.
Judy Brown is our guest now from Denver, Colorado to talk about her position on this matter.
Judy Brown, good morning to you.
Bill Hemmer in New York.
Can you hear me OK?
JUDY BROWN, COLUMBINE PARENT: Yes, I can.
HEMMER: Good morning.
Listen, do you want this preserved or do you want it public, this deposition?
BROWN: I want it -- absolutely, I want it public. I believe that parents, teachers, counselors, policemen, psychologists, psychiatrists can learn from what these parents have to offer. We do not have insight into these boys' behaviors up to this point. The schools have sealed their records. They have sealed their investigation that they did with taxpayers' monies. The medical records are sealed. This is our last chance to find out and understand the behavior of these children.
HEMMER: And what do you think we would learn in there?
BROWN: Well, I know what we would learn because I'm privy to the information and I can't share it without myself being dragged into court for divulging the information.
HEMMER: I understand that and I don't want you to give any specifics. I don't want you to surrender any sort of responsibility you're holding within yourself right now. But what do you think society would learn? What would other parents learn, do you believe, in a generic sense?
BROWN: Well, we have one child, Eric Harris, who was on medication, and I believe a lot of children have chemical imbalances and they are on medication. I believe these parents can give us insight into this child's behavior in the school. They can tell us about the interaction with the doctors. I think a lot of parents could learn about this.
There are a lot of parents wondering what makes their child different from Eric Harris and what they could do differently.
HEMMER: And, Judy, I want to put up a quote on the screen. One of the attorneys, a gentleman by the name of Frank Patterson, who represented the Klebolds, says, and quoting now, "There never, never was any evidence to support a claim against the parents. We had four years of intense scrutiny by police, government, media, private groups and lawsuits. Nothing ever turned up to hold the parents responsible."
What is your response to that?
BROWN: Well, if that's true, then let's put the depositions out and why are they sealing them? Why won't these parents talk publicly? Why are they hiding behind their lawyers? Why do they insist that videotapes, writings, medical records stay sealed? Why don't they come out in the open?
HEMMER: Yes, Judy Brown, thank you for talking with us from Denver, Colorado.
Her position on not to destroy this evidence, the depositions given by the parents.
Thank you, again, Ms. Brown, for your time.
For more on this controversial Columbine ruling, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is with us here -- good morning to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hey.
HEMMER: Is this unusual for a judge to say hey, go ahead and destroy it, shred it, burn it?
TOOBIN: It is unusual. Everything's unusual about this case. But I think, without getting caught in the legal weeds too much, you've got to remember one thing here. This is a case that was settled. It has not gone to trial. If the plaintiffs, when they settled the case said OK, we'll settle on the condition that you make all this stuff public, they could have negotiated that earlier.
So, the fact that they already settled the case, really, sort of limits the ability they can influence this court.
HEMMER: So you think this takes away from their argument, then? TOOBIN: It does take away from the argument because, you know, they settled the case. If they cared so much about getting this stuff public, they could have made it a condition of the settlement that it become public.
HEMMER: So then what is their recourse, if any, right now? You listened to Ms. Brown talk. I mean obviously she has a very impassioned plea here. She's been affected by this case as well as anybody right now, knowing that her son was there that day.
TOOBIN: Absolutely. They have, frankly, I think they have a tough case because this was all done under a protective order, which means it was meant to be secret during the time the case was pending and now the case is over. Remember, this is not an investigation by some legislative body. This was a private lawsuit that is now over. That kind of material, when the case is over, often -- not always, but often just stays secret.
HEMMER: Take a different approach though.
TOOBIN: Sure.
HEMMER: What if the parents did not know that these records were going to be destroyed?
TOOBIN: That is what they're claiming now and that's a concern. You know, I think they don't really have that good a case, even though, you know, there's something emotionally resonant about it.
HEMMER: Is it possible for the judge to go back, look at the depositions and take the argument that Judy Brown is making, saying, you know, the rest of society could learn from this massacre in Columbine three years ago?
TOOBIN: They might. And given the extraordinary circumstances here and given the fact that there is a great deal of public interest, a judge might change the usual ruling. But I think the usual ruling would be if it was secret during the lawsuit and the lawsuit is over, it stays secret.
HEMMER: And as you point out, nothing is standard in this case.
TOOBIN: Indeed, not.
HEMMER: We've never seen a Columbine like that.
TOOBIN: Fortunately.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jeff.
You're right, fortunately, indeed.
Jeffrey Toobin, thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Destruction of Depositions>
Aired September 29, 2003 - 08:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Families of the Columbine victims are angry that a judge has ordered the destruction of depositions given by parents of the killers. The statements from the parents of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were part of a wrongful death lawsuit. The judge's ruling said, and quoting now, "The court has considered that there would appear to be no further purpose, need or use for any of the five depositions to remain in existence because the case has been settled."
Judy Brown's son witnessed the Columbine shooting. He survived. Nearly a year before the tragedy, though, she warned police about Eric Harris' violent nature toward her son.
Judy Brown is our guest now from Denver, Colorado to talk about her position on this matter.
Judy Brown, good morning to you.
Bill Hemmer in New York.
Can you hear me OK?
JUDY BROWN, COLUMBINE PARENT: Yes, I can.
HEMMER: Good morning.
Listen, do you want this preserved or do you want it public, this deposition?
BROWN: I want it -- absolutely, I want it public. I believe that parents, teachers, counselors, policemen, psychologists, psychiatrists can learn from what these parents have to offer. We do not have insight into these boys' behaviors up to this point. The schools have sealed their records. They have sealed their investigation that they did with taxpayers' monies. The medical records are sealed. This is our last chance to find out and understand the behavior of these children.
HEMMER: And what do you think we would learn in there?
BROWN: Well, I know what we would learn because I'm privy to the information and I can't share it without myself being dragged into court for divulging the information.
HEMMER: I understand that and I don't want you to give any specifics. I don't want you to surrender any sort of responsibility you're holding within yourself right now. But what do you think society would learn? What would other parents learn, do you believe, in a generic sense?
BROWN: Well, we have one child, Eric Harris, who was on medication, and I believe a lot of children have chemical imbalances and they are on medication. I believe these parents can give us insight into this child's behavior in the school. They can tell us about the interaction with the doctors. I think a lot of parents could learn about this.
There are a lot of parents wondering what makes their child different from Eric Harris and what they could do differently.
HEMMER: And, Judy, I want to put up a quote on the screen. One of the attorneys, a gentleman by the name of Frank Patterson, who represented the Klebolds, says, and quoting now, "There never, never was any evidence to support a claim against the parents. We had four years of intense scrutiny by police, government, media, private groups and lawsuits. Nothing ever turned up to hold the parents responsible."
What is your response to that?
BROWN: Well, if that's true, then let's put the depositions out and why are they sealing them? Why won't these parents talk publicly? Why are they hiding behind their lawyers? Why do they insist that videotapes, writings, medical records stay sealed? Why don't they come out in the open?
HEMMER: Yes, Judy Brown, thank you for talking with us from Denver, Colorado.
Her position on not to destroy this evidence, the depositions given by the parents.
Thank you, again, Ms. Brown, for your time.
For more on this controversial Columbine ruling, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is with us here -- good morning to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hey.
HEMMER: Is this unusual for a judge to say hey, go ahead and destroy it, shred it, burn it?
TOOBIN: It is unusual. Everything's unusual about this case. But I think, without getting caught in the legal weeds too much, you've got to remember one thing here. This is a case that was settled. It has not gone to trial. If the plaintiffs, when they settled the case said OK, we'll settle on the condition that you make all this stuff public, they could have negotiated that earlier.
So, the fact that they already settled the case, really, sort of limits the ability they can influence this court.
HEMMER: So you think this takes away from their argument, then? TOOBIN: It does take away from the argument because, you know, they settled the case. If they cared so much about getting this stuff public, they could have made it a condition of the settlement that it become public.
HEMMER: So then what is their recourse, if any, right now? You listened to Ms. Brown talk. I mean obviously she has a very impassioned plea here. She's been affected by this case as well as anybody right now, knowing that her son was there that day.
TOOBIN: Absolutely. They have, frankly, I think they have a tough case because this was all done under a protective order, which means it was meant to be secret during the time the case was pending and now the case is over. Remember, this is not an investigation by some legislative body. This was a private lawsuit that is now over. That kind of material, when the case is over, often -- not always, but often just stays secret.
HEMMER: Take a different approach though.
TOOBIN: Sure.
HEMMER: What if the parents did not know that these records were going to be destroyed?
TOOBIN: That is what they're claiming now and that's a concern. You know, I think they don't really have that good a case, even though, you know, there's something emotionally resonant about it.
HEMMER: Is it possible for the judge to go back, look at the depositions and take the argument that Judy Brown is making, saying, you know, the rest of society could learn from this massacre in Columbine three years ago?
TOOBIN: They might. And given the extraordinary circumstances here and given the fact that there is a great deal of public interest, a judge might change the usual ruling. But I think the usual ruling would be if it was secret during the lawsuit and the lawsuit is over, it stays secret.
HEMMER: And as you point out, nothing is standard in this case.
TOOBIN: Indeed, not.
HEMMER: We've never seen a Columbine like that.
TOOBIN: Fortunately.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jeff.
You're right, fortunately, indeed.
Jeffrey Toobin, thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Destruction of Depositions>
