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American Morning

Unsafe Nuclear Plants?

Aired October 10, 2003 - 09:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Now to the question security at the nation's nuclear power plants. During drills when mock terrorists tried to get into nuclear weapons facility, they succeeded about half the time. That's according to an article, anyway, in "Vanity Fair." The government says it's not true. The story's author Mart Hertsgaard is now with us live in Baltimore.
Good morning to you, Mark. You've certainly raised a lot of eyebrows with this report.

What's the most surprising and perhaps alarming security breach that you say you uncovered?

MARK HERTSGAARD, WRITER, "VANITY FAIR": One quick correction. We're talking about nuclear weapons plants. You said nuclear power plants, and it's important to realize that distinction, because obviously, a breach at nuclear weapons plants would be far more serious.

And to me, I guess the most surprising thing was that according to the guy who was running the war games for the U.S. government in the five years before September 11th, Rich Lavernia, was featured in the story, his mock terrorist squads were able to get into the Los Alamos nuclear facility, capture the plutonium and get away again between 50 and 100 percent of the time, even though the security forces at that facility knew months in advance exactly what day they were coming.

HEMMER: So they knew that this was on its way, then, is what you're saying? That's what surprised you.

Listen, the Department of Energy has issued a long state. I'm going to read it for our viewers. We asked a rep to come one. They denied that, but they did give us this statement. So let's follow along now: "The DOE has increased NNSA security funding by nearly 50 percent to ensure that our nuclear weapons materials are vulnerable to terrorist attack."

That statement continues, "Allegations of a 50 percent failure rate in security tests are simply untrue."

Your reaction to that statement?

HERTSGAARD: I wish that were true. Unfortunately, the Department of Energy has been saying that kind of thing for literally decades. And it's not what they said in the legal proceedings that Rich Lavernia brought under the Whistle-Blower Protection Act, which was just recently completely. Mr. Lavernia was upheld in that legal proceeding. The Department of Energy had the chance to challenge his findings then. They did not.

Likewise, I interviewed for this story Congressman Christopher Schayes of Connecticut, a Republican, I might add, who chairs the relevant subcommittee in the House of Representatives, and he said that he's absolutely thunderstruck by these difficulties, and he added that -- something I didn't get into in my story, that much worse than Los Alamos is the situation at Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

HEMMER: Listen, back before we get into Tennessee, back up a little bit. The Department of Energy is saying that your survey was done, study done in 1996, 1998 and 1999. They claim now it's 2003. And after the events of 09/11, things have changed dramatically. Have you been back in the past two years to investigate that?

HERTSGAARD: I was there in February. I don't know what quite they're talking about when they say it's 1996. I think what they're referring to is that Rich Lavernia, who's my source -- I'm just the reporter on this, by the way. Rich Lavernia was running the war games from 1997 onwards, and it was his findings that I reported on. And I was back in February to talk to another whistle-blower at Los Alamos, by the way, who discovered a secret nuclear waste dump, and who one year after September 11th was fired from Los Alamos, because he blew the whistle on a magic sprinkler system at Los Alamos that basically said, the government was saying, yes, if an airline is crashed into our waste facility here at Los Alamos, it will set hundreds of thousands of gallons of nuclear waste on fire, but not to worry, the sprinkler system will put it out. And my guy said, well, that must be one magical sprinkler system.

HEMMER: Mark, in your article, you name at least two of these whistle-blowers. What was their incentive to come forward and talk to you at this point?

HERTSGAARD: They are extremely reluctant whistle-blowers. Rich Lavernia and Chris Steele (ph) have spent their entire lives working through the system, until they taken off their jobs, had their security clearances yanked, because they stood up for these kinds of reforms and tried to get this fixed.

And finally, they saw no other way forward than to file Whistle- Blower Protection Act lawsuits, represented by the Government Accountability Project in Washington, and they went to this reporter to try to get their story out, to prevent a catastrophe that would kill not 3,000 people, like the last September 11, but 300,000.

HEMMER: It certainly makes some interesting reading. And a lot of people out there, in D.C. especially, disagree with your findings. Nonetheless, you can read all about it in vanity fair. Mark Hertsgaard, thanks for talking with us today down there in Baltimore.

HERTSGAARD: Thanks for having me.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired October 10, 2003 - 09:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Now to the question security at the nation's nuclear power plants. During drills when mock terrorists tried to get into nuclear weapons facility, they succeeded about half the time. That's according to an article, anyway, in "Vanity Fair." The government says it's not true. The story's author Mart Hertsgaard is now with us live in Baltimore.
Good morning to you, Mark. You've certainly raised a lot of eyebrows with this report.

What's the most surprising and perhaps alarming security breach that you say you uncovered?

MARK HERTSGAARD, WRITER, "VANITY FAIR": One quick correction. We're talking about nuclear weapons plants. You said nuclear power plants, and it's important to realize that distinction, because obviously, a breach at nuclear weapons plants would be far more serious.

And to me, I guess the most surprising thing was that according to the guy who was running the war games for the U.S. government in the five years before September 11th, Rich Lavernia, was featured in the story, his mock terrorist squads were able to get into the Los Alamos nuclear facility, capture the plutonium and get away again between 50 and 100 percent of the time, even though the security forces at that facility knew months in advance exactly what day they were coming.

HEMMER: So they knew that this was on its way, then, is what you're saying? That's what surprised you.

Listen, the Department of Energy has issued a long state. I'm going to read it for our viewers. We asked a rep to come one. They denied that, but they did give us this statement. So let's follow along now: "The DOE has increased NNSA security funding by nearly 50 percent to ensure that our nuclear weapons materials are vulnerable to terrorist attack."

That statement continues, "Allegations of a 50 percent failure rate in security tests are simply untrue."

Your reaction to that statement?

HERTSGAARD: I wish that were true. Unfortunately, the Department of Energy has been saying that kind of thing for literally decades. And it's not what they said in the legal proceedings that Rich Lavernia brought under the Whistle-Blower Protection Act, which was just recently completely. Mr. Lavernia was upheld in that legal proceeding. The Department of Energy had the chance to challenge his findings then. They did not.

Likewise, I interviewed for this story Congressman Christopher Schayes of Connecticut, a Republican, I might add, who chairs the relevant subcommittee in the House of Representatives, and he said that he's absolutely thunderstruck by these difficulties, and he added that -- something I didn't get into in my story, that much worse than Los Alamos is the situation at Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

HEMMER: Listen, back before we get into Tennessee, back up a little bit. The Department of Energy is saying that your survey was done, study done in 1996, 1998 and 1999. They claim now it's 2003. And after the events of 09/11, things have changed dramatically. Have you been back in the past two years to investigate that?

HERTSGAARD: I was there in February. I don't know what quite they're talking about when they say it's 1996. I think what they're referring to is that Rich Lavernia, who's my source -- I'm just the reporter on this, by the way. Rich Lavernia was running the war games from 1997 onwards, and it was his findings that I reported on. And I was back in February to talk to another whistle-blower at Los Alamos, by the way, who discovered a secret nuclear waste dump, and who one year after September 11th was fired from Los Alamos, because he blew the whistle on a magic sprinkler system at Los Alamos that basically said, the government was saying, yes, if an airline is crashed into our waste facility here at Los Alamos, it will set hundreds of thousands of gallons of nuclear waste on fire, but not to worry, the sprinkler system will put it out. And my guy said, well, that must be one magical sprinkler system.

HEMMER: Mark, in your article, you name at least two of these whistle-blowers. What was their incentive to come forward and talk to you at this point?

HERTSGAARD: They are extremely reluctant whistle-blowers. Rich Lavernia and Chris Steele (ph) have spent their entire lives working through the system, until they taken off their jobs, had their security clearances yanked, because they stood up for these kinds of reforms and tried to get this fixed.

And finally, they saw no other way forward than to file Whistle- Blower Protection Act lawsuits, represented by the Government Accountability Project in Washington, and they went to this reporter to try to get their story out, to prevent a catastrophe that would kill not 3,000 people, like the last September 11, but 300,000.

HEMMER: It certainly makes some interesting reading. And a lot of people out there, in D.C. especially, disagree with your findings. Nonetheless, you can read all about it in vanity fair. Mark Hertsgaard, thanks for talking with us today down there in Baltimore.

HERTSGAARD: Thanks for having me.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com