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American Morning

Russia, France, Germany Say They're Not Ready to Send Troops

Aired October 17, 2003 - 08:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously on Thursday for a U.S.-backed resolution aimed at getting more troops and money to stabilize Iraq.
President Bush hailed the vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today I want to thank the United Nations Security Council for unanimously passing a resolution supporting out efforts to build a peaceful and free Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: But Russia, France and Germany now say they are not ready to send troops to Iraq.

So, is it a hollow victory?

Joining us this morning from Washington is Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is a former national security adviser to Jimmy Carter.

Dr. Brzezinski, nice to have you.

Good morning to you.

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Good morning.

Nice to be with you.

O'BRIEN: So, on one hand, the good news is the resolution passed. On the other hand, of course, it doesn't seem necessarily to have much value.

Is it only a symbolic gesture, do you believe?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I think you basically have it right. I was sort of baffled yesterday when I saw the different headlines saying "U.S. Victory." CNN said it. Senator Biden said it. The "New York Times" said it. But I think, at best, it was a compromise. Both sides avoided a rift, a split. The U.S. got some sort of an endorsement. The U.N. got some sort of a promise of increased involvement. The U.N. called upon countries to provide more assistance, men and money, but the countries concerned said they will do it if there is, in the future, a greater role for the U.N.

So we avoided a collision. It was a compromise, hardly a victory.

O'BRIEN: Later, in fact, France and Germany said that they felt the resolution was too flawed to actually send additional troops and money. Did they, by that statement, essentially undercut any up side of the document?

BRZEZINSKI: Not really. I think what they indicated was that we are moving in the right direction. I think the international community doesn't want us to be a failure in Iraq. They still don't approve of what we did and how we did it, but they all realize that we have a collective stake in some success in the Middle East, in Iraq specifically. Behind-the-scenes, the Europeans are also concerned about their role in dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. And therefore nobody wants a total rift. And people are looking for a way out and my guess is if there are more casualties and continued difficulties, we will give the U.N. a larger role. Eventually some U.N. members may be willing to help us more.

O'BRIEN: Repairing the rift and moving in the right direction then all can sort of add up to a diplomatic triumph for the president. So what's the value in that?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I still wouldn't call it a diplomatic triumph, because actually if the aid comes, if the men and money comes, it will be because we will have accepted something that we were not willing to accept, which is a dominant role by the U.N. in the process of establishing a new Iraq. But we are sort of inching towards a compromise, reluctantly, and I think events on the ground will dictate what happens. If there are more casualties, continued difficulties, we will probably be more willing to compromise the with U.N. If we can do it on our own, we probably will not compromise anymore.

O'BRIEN: Let's turn and talk a little bit about the pope, who celebrated, as you well know, 25 years as pope. Compare him to past popes. Would you say he is far more politically active than his predecessors?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I think he's different than most popes in several very important ways. You can think of, it in a way, as involving four large concentric circles, circles within circles. In the largest global sense, he's the first global spiritual leader who reaches out beyond his own denomination. He's the only spiritual leader who's recognized worldwide and hallowed worldwide. And that's a special role and I think he has done a lot to reignite the quest for spiritualism.

Within that, he has done a lot for ecumenism among the Christian churches and also between Christians and Jews. And that's terribly important in closing the rifts of the past.

Then, thirdly, he reconstituted the Catholic Church, which was facing dissolution 25 years ago. It was breaking up into national churches without a common theological core.

And the last and fourth, but very important, he reignited in Poland a sense of solidarity. He, in fact, helped solidarity in Poland, which brought communism down, by giving people a sense that they're not isolated, that they're not permeated with informers, that the regime is not dominant and enduring. In that sense, he made a critical contribution to the fall of communism.

O'BRIEN: In fact, he is one of three Poles who are credited with bringing down the Iron Curtain, the other two being Lech Walesa and yourself.

1980, the last month of the Carter administration, you get word that Russian troops are massing on the polish border. You pick up the phone and you call the pope and you speak to him in polish.

Can you tell us about that conversation, what was said and what his response was?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I'm amazed that you know about this, and I have to be very circumspect. But the president told me that I should speak to the pope. So I think around 11:30 Vatican time I phoned. The pope has never been phoned before by some foreign statesman. And I asked to speak to him. And his private security, who now is a bishop, came on the line and he was amazed. And I said, "I'm calling on behalf of the president of the United States. May I speak to the Holy Father?"

And the bishop hesitated for a second and then said, "I will see if I can find him," which is a wonderful response. And within a few seconds, the pope was on the line.

I told him about the intelligence that we had, namely that 18 Soviet divisions would be entering Poland. And then we talked about the implications of that and what it means also for the Catholic Church. And then at the end of the conversation, which went into several other issues, I said to him, "Holy Father, if I need to call you again, is there a special number I could call?"

And he said, "Wait a minute." And then I heard him in a whisper say to the bishop, "Do I have a private number?" And then he gave it to me.

And so it was a remarkable conversation in several ways, in addition to its intrinsic significance as a moment in history.

O'BRIEN: Certainly credited as the spark that ignited the massive movement in Poland.

Dr. Brzezinski, thank you for talking with us this morning.

We certainly appreciate it.

BRZEZINSKI: It's nice to be with you.

O'BRIEN: Our pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Troops>


Aired October 17, 2003 - 08:06   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously on Thursday for a U.S.-backed resolution aimed at getting more troops and money to stabilize Iraq.
President Bush hailed the vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today I want to thank the United Nations Security Council for unanimously passing a resolution supporting out efforts to build a peaceful and free Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: But Russia, France and Germany now say they are not ready to send troops to Iraq.

So, is it a hollow victory?

Joining us this morning from Washington is Zbigniew Brzezinski. He is a former national security adviser to Jimmy Carter.

Dr. Brzezinski, nice to have you.

Good morning to you.

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Good morning.

Nice to be with you.

O'BRIEN: So, on one hand, the good news is the resolution passed. On the other hand, of course, it doesn't seem necessarily to have much value.

Is it only a symbolic gesture, do you believe?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I think you basically have it right. I was sort of baffled yesterday when I saw the different headlines saying "U.S. Victory." CNN said it. Senator Biden said it. The "New York Times" said it. But I think, at best, it was a compromise. Both sides avoided a rift, a split. The U.S. got some sort of an endorsement. The U.N. got some sort of a promise of increased involvement. The U.N. called upon countries to provide more assistance, men and money, but the countries concerned said they will do it if there is, in the future, a greater role for the U.N.

So we avoided a collision. It was a compromise, hardly a victory.

O'BRIEN: Later, in fact, France and Germany said that they felt the resolution was too flawed to actually send additional troops and money. Did they, by that statement, essentially undercut any up side of the document?

BRZEZINSKI: Not really. I think what they indicated was that we are moving in the right direction. I think the international community doesn't want us to be a failure in Iraq. They still don't approve of what we did and how we did it, but they all realize that we have a collective stake in some success in the Middle East, in Iraq specifically. Behind-the-scenes, the Europeans are also concerned about their role in dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. And therefore nobody wants a total rift. And people are looking for a way out and my guess is if there are more casualties and continued difficulties, we will give the U.N. a larger role. Eventually some U.N. members may be willing to help us more.

O'BRIEN: Repairing the rift and moving in the right direction then all can sort of add up to a diplomatic triumph for the president. So what's the value in that?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I still wouldn't call it a diplomatic triumph, because actually if the aid comes, if the men and money comes, it will be because we will have accepted something that we were not willing to accept, which is a dominant role by the U.N. in the process of establishing a new Iraq. But we are sort of inching towards a compromise, reluctantly, and I think events on the ground will dictate what happens. If there are more casualties, continued difficulties, we will probably be more willing to compromise the with U.N. If we can do it on our own, we probably will not compromise anymore.

O'BRIEN: Let's turn and talk a little bit about the pope, who celebrated, as you well know, 25 years as pope. Compare him to past popes. Would you say he is far more politically active than his predecessors?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I think he's different than most popes in several very important ways. You can think of, it in a way, as involving four large concentric circles, circles within circles. In the largest global sense, he's the first global spiritual leader who reaches out beyond his own denomination. He's the only spiritual leader who's recognized worldwide and hallowed worldwide. And that's a special role and I think he has done a lot to reignite the quest for spiritualism.

Within that, he has done a lot for ecumenism among the Christian churches and also between Christians and Jews. And that's terribly important in closing the rifts of the past.

Then, thirdly, he reconstituted the Catholic Church, which was facing dissolution 25 years ago. It was breaking up into national churches without a common theological core.

And the last and fourth, but very important, he reignited in Poland a sense of solidarity. He, in fact, helped solidarity in Poland, which brought communism down, by giving people a sense that they're not isolated, that they're not permeated with informers, that the regime is not dominant and enduring. In that sense, he made a critical contribution to the fall of communism.

O'BRIEN: In fact, he is one of three Poles who are credited with bringing down the Iron Curtain, the other two being Lech Walesa and yourself.

1980, the last month of the Carter administration, you get word that Russian troops are massing on the polish border. You pick up the phone and you call the pope and you speak to him in polish.

Can you tell us about that conversation, what was said and what his response was?

BRZEZINSKI: Well, I'm amazed that you know about this, and I have to be very circumspect. But the president told me that I should speak to the pope. So I think around 11:30 Vatican time I phoned. The pope has never been phoned before by some foreign statesman. And I asked to speak to him. And his private security, who now is a bishop, came on the line and he was amazed. And I said, "I'm calling on behalf of the president of the United States. May I speak to the Holy Father?"

And the bishop hesitated for a second and then said, "I will see if I can find him," which is a wonderful response. And within a few seconds, the pope was on the line.

I told him about the intelligence that we had, namely that 18 Soviet divisions would be entering Poland. And then we talked about the implications of that and what it means also for the Catholic Church. And then at the end of the conversation, which went into several other issues, I said to him, "Holy Father, if I need to call you again, is there a special number I could call?"

And he said, "Wait a minute." And then I heard him in a whisper say to the bishop, "Do I have a private number?" And then he gave it to me.

And so it was a remarkable conversation in several ways, in addition to its intrinsic significance as a moment in history.

O'BRIEN: Certainly credited as the spark that ignited the massive movement in Poland.

Dr. Brzezinski, thank you for talking with us this morning.

We certainly appreciate it.

BRZEZINSKI: It's nice to be with you.

O'BRIEN: Our pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Troops>