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American Morning

The Last Emperor

Aired October 17, 2003 - 09:34   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: North Korea's Kim Jong-Il might be an even greater threat to the U.S. than Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden, but far less is known about America's nuclear nemesis. Peter Maass should some light on the mystery man and his empire in the cover story that he has written for Sunday's "New York Times" magazine called "The Last Emperor." Peter Maass joins us now. I should mention that the question at the bottom is, who does Kim Jong-Il think he is? That's sort of the crux of the questions I think everybody has about him, Peter.
Good morning.

Who is this guy? Some people say madman, crazed. Other people say charming, fanatic about Western movies. Who is he?

PETER MAASS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "N.Y. TIMES MAGAZINE": He's definitely not a madman, he's definitely not crazed. This is somebody who has been preparing for power and been in power for really decades. Although his father died in 1994, Kim Jong-Il was really running the show for many years before that, and he's been doing it in a very methodological way. So to think that he's a madman, no. He's really a very skillful workaholic leader, of course, of an extremely dictatorial regime.

O'BRIEN: President Bush says North Korea part of the Axis of Evil. Do you think Kim Jong-Il is as bad, as notorious as Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden? Is that a fair lumping of the three, you think?

MAASS: Well, I think definitely. The difference being, however, that with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, much of the misery that they inflected were on people outside of their own borders. Of course, Iraqis suffered quite a bit under Saddam Hussein. For Kim Jong-Il the people who have suffered the most under his rule have been his own people. There is preventable famine in North Korea in the 1990s, 2 million people died, hundreds of thousands are in prison camps, many of them executed. It's the North Koreans who are suffering the most as a result of his rule.

O'BRIEN: Some of the biggest interests the United States has in North Korea I would say is sort of on two fronts. One, the questions about potential reforming of the economy there, and also questions of disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. So let's begin with disarmament.

To some degree, you have to question why would Kim Jong-Il give up the sole bargaining chip that he has with the United States? MAASS: Exactly. The question really isn't is he crazy enough to have nuclear weapons, but is he crazy enough to dispossess himself of them if -- and people do think he does have them -- he has them. And the question really is, what's he going to do with them? And most likely he will use them as bargaining chips, not in the sense of actually igniting them against an attack against Seoul or the United States. But in order to get aid, get support that he needs, get respect that he wants from outside countries, particularly the United States; it's like ransom.

O'BRIEN: When it comes to reforming the economy, generally, when that happens dictators lose out. That's usually the disincentive to do so. He's trying to do both. Is it possible to stay in power and reform his economy?

MAASS: For him, it's really not possible to do both, and that's why he's in such a corner, because of course reforming your economy means opening up your economy and opening up your country. North Korea's one of the most insular countries in the world, probably the most insular. People there are really not fully aware of the degree of abject failure they suffer, and they're certainly not capable of expressing that dissatisfaction.

So the more he opens up the economy, the more he opens up his own regime to the vulnerabilities that it has, and to failure and collapse.

O'BRIEN: And yet if you look at history, the collapse of the Soviet Union, what's happened in Eastern Europe, change in China, do you predict change has to come to North Korea?

MAASS: Change comes to every country, whether its dictatorial or Democratic. So I think it's certain that change will come to North Korea. I think the thing that's not certain is how it will come. I mean, you can make all sorts of predictions. But at the time just before the Soviet Union fell apart, nobody thought that that would happen in the way that it happened. The same you could say with Maoist discipline in China. So with North Korea, sure, something's going to happen. When, how, who will be responsible.

O'BRIEN: What exactly.

MAASS: What the consequences will be, your guess is as good as mine.

O'BRIEN: Kim Jong-Il, fascinating character. And you write about it in the cover story of "The New York Times Magazine" this weekend. Nice to have you, Peter Maass. Appreciate it.

MAASS: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 17, 2003 - 09:34   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: North Korea's Kim Jong-Il might be an even greater threat to the U.S. than Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden, but far less is known about America's nuclear nemesis. Peter Maass should some light on the mystery man and his empire in the cover story that he has written for Sunday's "New York Times" magazine called "The Last Emperor." Peter Maass joins us now. I should mention that the question at the bottom is, who does Kim Jong-Il think he is? That's sort of the crux of the questions I think everybody has about him, Peter.
Good morning.

Who is this guy? Some people say madman, crazed. Other people say charming, fanatic about Western movies. Who is he?

PETER MAASS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "N.Y. TIMES MAGAZINE": He's definitely not a madman, he's definitely not crazed. This is somebody who has been preparing for power and been in power for really decades. Although his father died in 1994, Kim Jong-Il was really running the show for many years before that, and he's been doing it in a very methodological way. So to think that he's a madman, no. He's really a very skillful workaholic leader, of course, of an extremely dictatorial regime.

O'BRIEN: President Bush says North Korea part of the Axis of Evil. Do you think Kim Jong-Il is as bad, as notorious as Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden? Is that a fair lumping of the three, you think?

MAASS: Well, I think definitely. The difference being, however, that with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, much of the misery that they inflected were on people outside of their own borders. Of course, Iraqis suffered quite a bit under Saddam Hussein. For Kim Jong-Il the people who have suffered the most under his rule have been his own people. There is preventable famine in North Korea in the 1990s, 2 million people died, hundreds of thousands are in prison camps, many of them executed. It's the North Koreans who are suffering the most as a result of his rule.

O'BRIEN: Some of the biggest interests the United States has in North Korea I would say is sort of on two fronts. One, the questions about potential reforming of the economy there, and also questions of disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. So let's begin with disarmament.

To some degree, you have to question why would Kim Jong-Il give up the sole bargaining chip that he has with the United States? MAASS: Exactly. The question really isn't is he crazy enough to have nuclear weapons, but is he crazy enough to dispossess himself of them if -- and people do think he does have them -- he has them. And the question really is, what's he going to do with them? And most likely he will use them as bargaining chips, not in the sense of actually igniting them against an attack against Seoul or the United States. But in order to get aid, get support that he needs, get respect that he wants from outside countries, particularly the United States; it's like ransom.

O'BRIEN: When it comes to reforming the economy, generally, when that happens dictators lose out. That's usually the disincentive to do so. He's trying to do both. Is it possible to stay in power and reform his economy?

MAASS: For him, it's really not possible to do both, and that's why he's in such a corner, because of course reforming your economy means opening up your economy and opening up your country. North Korea's one of the most insular countries in the world, probably the most insular. People there are really not fully aware of the degree of abject failure they suffer, and they're certainly not capable of expressing that dissatisfaction.

So the more he opens up the economy, the more he opens up his own regime to the vulnerabilities that it has, and to failure and collapse.

O'BRIEN: And yet if you look at history, the collapse of the Soviet Union, what's happened in Eastern Europe, change in China, do you predict change has to come to North Korea?

MAASS: Change comes to every country, whether its dictatorial or Democratic. So I think it's certain that change will come to North Korea. I think the thing that's not certain is how it will come. I mean, you can make all sorts of predictions. But at the time just before the Soviet Union fell apart, nobody thought that that would happen in the way that it happened. The same you could say with Maoist discipline in China. So with North Korea, sure, something's going to happen. When, how, who will be responsible.

O'BRIEN: What exactly.

MAASS: What the consequences will be, your guess is as good as mine.

O'BRIEN: Kim Jong-Il, fascinating character. And you write about it in the cover story of "The New York Times Magazine" this weekend. Nice to have you, Peter Maass. Appreciate it.

MAASS: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com