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American Morning

Interview With Paul Ragan

Aired November 07, 2003 - 09:16   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A charge of cowardice against a National Guardsman who served in Iraq has now been dropped. But Sergeant Georg Pogany is still accused of dereliction of duty. On his second night in Iraq, Pogany says he saw an Iraqi soldier cut in half by machine-gun fire, says he was traumatized and went to his superiors for help.
They sent him back to the U.S. where he was charged with cowardice. That crime is punishable by death. Did the military overreact? And how common is this right now in the country of Iraq?

Dr. Paul Ragan is a psychiatrist who has counseled soldiers during the Persian Gulf War. He joins us now from Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Good to see you, Doctor. Good morning to you.

DR. PAUL RAGAN, MILITARY SPECIALIST, VANDERBILT UNIV.: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: I just mentioned some of the facts in this case. As you understand them, fill in the blanks that I missed.

RAGAN: He evidently was stationed with the 10th Special Forces, sent around September 26 to Iraq which I think of interest is that he was assigned to the Green Berets. This was not his unit that he was normally with.

After a very short period of time in country, as you note, he witnessed this horrific death. And then as an interrogator, which is what he was trained to do, evidently he had difficulty in this performance.

But during this time, what's of note is that he developed the combat stress reaction.

HEMMER: And, Doctor, you've seen these cases many times in the past I'm certain. Based on what we know, anyway, did the military act correctly in your opinion?

RAGAN: Well, I think it's very plausible that he had a combat stress reaction, and it is possible that to refer him for charges may have been an overreaction. I think the commanders may have been very frustrated when he came back from his evaluation by the military psychologist, and still was not able to do his job.

But at that point, it sounds like they proceeded with the charges. But they could have also sent him back to the psychologist and said, Look, he really needs some more treatment. He's only been here a short period of time. And he doesn't seem to be able to do his job.

HEMMER: Knowing that, Doctor, how do you then define what is a normal human reaction versus defining what's military law and what must be upheld to make sure units stay cohesive, especially in a conflict like Iraq?

RAGAN: Well one of the things that these commanders may not have been in a good position to have done, because they didn't know him, is what his -- what he was capable of in his performance. The way you can tell is when there's been a big change in someone's performance.

And also, you can examine, if you're able to, to see the degree of distress, the vividness. If he has nightmares, can't sleep, reportedly he was vomiting, couldn't keep food down, and had this panic attack during the interrogation.

All of that suggests that there really is a real disorder here, and it's quote, "normal." But it's a reaction to a very abnormal event.

HEMMER: What I hear you saying, Doctor, is that the military is wrong in this case. Is that a clear assessment?

RAGAN: Well, we don't have all the facts. And clearly the military is not speaking.

I think that he could have had a combat stress. It's very plausible. And unless there are some other mitigating facts that we don't know about, it's very possible.

I do have to keep it tentative because we're only hearing one side, which is the staff sergeant.

HEMMER: That we are. About 30 seconds left here, Doctor. How common is this in battle, conflict?

RAGAN: It can be very common, with new troops that do not have combat experience. It can range up to almost 50 percent, in some of the most severe tank battles. For example, in the Israeli incursion into Lebanon, there were combat stress reactions. It's directly proportional to the intensity of the combat.

HEMMER: And it seems to me, again, we're riding a fine line here in trying to keep strict military code and military law and also be sensitive to human reactions.

RAGAN: And that's what the military psychologists and military psychiatrists are there for is to help the commanders sort out what looks like misbehavior versus what is something that's a genuine combat stress reaction that needs to be treated.

HEMMER: Doctor, thank you.

RAGAN: You're welcome. HEMMER: Paul Ragan, Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Nice to chat with you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 7, 2003 - 09:16   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A charge of cowardice against a National Guardsman who served in Iraq has now been dropped. But Sergeant Georg Pogany is still accused of dereliction of duty. On his second night in Iraq, Pogany says he saw an Iraqi soldier cut in half by machine-gun fire, says he was traumatized and went to his superiors for help.
They sent him back to the U.S. where he was charged with cowardice. That crime is punishable by death. Did the military overreact? And how common is this right now in the country of Iraq?

Dr. Paul Ragan is a psychiatrist who has counseled soldiers during the Persian Gulf War. He joins us now from Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Good to see you, Doctor. Good morning to you.

DR. PAUL RAGAN, MILITARY SPECIALIST, VANDERBILT UNIV.: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: I just mentioned some of the facts in this case. As you understand them, fill in the blanks that I missed.

RAGAN: He evidently was stationed with the 10th Special Forces, sent around September 26 to Iraq which I think of interest is that he was assigned to the Green Berets. This was not his unit that he was normally with.

After a very short period of time in country, as you note, he witnessed this horrific death. And then as an interrogator, which is what he was trained to do, evidently he had difficulty in this performance.

But during this time, what's of note is that he developed the combat stress reaction.

HEMMER: And, Doctor, you've seen these cases many times in the past I'm certain. Based on what we know, anyway, did the military act correctly in your opinion?

RAGAN: Well, I think it's very plausible that he had a combat stress reaction, and it is possible that to refer him for charges may have been an overreaction. I think the commanders may have been very frustrated when he came back from his evaluation by the military psychologist, and still was not able to do his job.

But at that point, it sounds like they proceeded with the charges. But they could have also sent him back to the psychologist and said, Look, he really needs some more treatment. He's only been here a short period of time. And he doesn't seem to be able to do his job.

HEMMER: Knowing that, Doctor, how do you then define what is a normal human reaction versus defining what's military law and what must be upheld to make sure units stay cohesive, especially in a conflict like Iraq?

RAGAN: Well one of the things that these commanders may not have been in a good position to have done, because they didn't know him, is what his -- what he was capable of in his performance. The way you can tell is when there's been a big change in someone's performance.

And also, you can examine, if you're able to, to see the degree of distress, the vividness. If he has nightmares, can't sleep, reportedly he was vomiting, couldn't keep food down, and had this panic attack during the interrogation.

All of that suggests that there really is a real disorder here, and it's quote, "normal." But it's a reaction to a very abnormal event.

HEMMER: What I hear you saying, Doctor, is that the military is wrong in this case. Is that a clear assessment?

RAGAN: Well, we don't have all the facts. And clearly the military is not speaking.

I think that he could have had a combat stress. It's very plausible. And unless there are some other mitigating facts that we don't know about, it's very possible.

I do have to keep it tentative because we're only hearing one side, which is the staff sergeant.

HEMMER: That we are. About 30 seconds left here, Doctor. How common is this in battle, conflict?

RAGAN: It can be very common, with new troops that do not have combat experience. It can range up to almost 50 percent, in some of the most severe tank battles. For example, in the Israeli incursion into Lebanon, there were combat stress reactions. It's directly proportional to the intensity of the combat.

HEMMER: And it seems to me, again, we're riding a fine line here in trying to keep strict military code and military law and also be sensitive to human reactions.

RAGAN: And that's what the military psychologists and military psychiatrists are there for is to help the commanders sort out what looks like misbehavior versus what is something that's a genuine combat stress reaction that needs to be treated.

HEMMER: Doctor, thank you.

RAGAN: You're welcome. HEMMER: Paul Ragan, Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Nice to chat with you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com