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American Morning

Mental State of Lee Boyd Malvo Now Focus in Murder Trial

Aired December 09, 2003 - 07:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The mental state of Lee Boyd Malvo at the time of the D.C. area sniper killings is now the focus in his murder trial. Testifying for the defense yesterday, a psychologist said Malvo told him he was the spotter and not the shooter in the killing of an FBI analyst. The psychologist says Malvo feared that now convicted sniper John Muhammad would kill him if he deviated from their plan.
Malvo's lawyers contend that Muhammad brainwashed the teenager.

With us to talk about it, criminologist Casey Jordan back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Nice to see you.

The psychologist says that Malvo told him that he was going to cover for Muhammad at all costs.

What does that suggest to you?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, the timing of this is just a little bit too convenient. There's no doubt that there was definitely an allegiance between Malvo and Muhammad, that they had kind of a master-disciple or a mentorship type of relationship. But the testimony that Malvo would have given when he was first apprehended, in which he claimed to be the shooter, is probably the most credible testimony.

It's just a little too convenient that now that Muhammad has been convicted and sentenced to death, he's doing a switcheroo and now saying that it was Muhammad all along who was the shooter.

HEMMER: Take me through a few things here. The psychologist, Dewey Cornell, testifies that Muhammad psychologically indoctrinated Malvo. Look at some of the things he pointed to -- isolating him from family and friends; exposing him to violent videos and games, trained him to use weapons; controlled his diet, hygiene and sleep; lectured him on political philosophy.

A brainwashing tactic that you've seen before or not?

JORDAN: I wouldn't call it a brainwashing tactic. Yes, there's definitely issues of power and control. Muhammad liked control. Malvo was a very good subject for that control. And yet, as a shopping list that looks overwhelming. But if we isolate each of those little variables -- watching violent videos, what 16-year-old doesn't these days? Keeping him isolated. A lot of kids go home to an empty house and are isolated with their parents.

It is just not enough, even taken as a totality, to really convince most people -- and I think the jury won't be bought into it either -- that this was the type of brainwashing that we've seen, for instance, with the Manson case or with the Patty Hearst case.

HEMMER: Can you make a distinction between someone who is brainwashed and somebody who's insane? Are they one and the same or are they distinctively different?

JORDAN: They are extremely different because the legal definition of insanity has very little to do with the psychiatric definition of insanity. Malvo can have extreme mental disturbances, even be mentally ill, even psychologically insane, and not meet the legal definition of insanity, which really hinges on did he understand the difference between right and wrong, was he able to choose right over wrong, did he know what he was doing was wrong.

It's very simple. The fact that they hid in the car, had a very elaborate plan to get away, that they fled from the crime scene indicates that Malvo knew what he was doing was wrong at all times.

HEMMER: So is there any distinction between a spotter and a shooter, do you think then, in a case like this?

JORDAN: I don't think there will be in the minds of the jury. It's important in terms of going after the death penalty in this particular jurisdiction that they show Malvo was the shooter. But in the minds of the jury, I don't think they're going to be able to distinguish between the capability of Muhammad and Malvo.

HEMMER: Yes, quickly, an eight minute clip from the movie "Matrix." He says he watched it a hundred times.

How much of an impact would that have on someone, or even the jury? When you're watching something a hundred times, a lot of times it dulls the senses when you see it over and over and over again.

JORDAN: Well, I would agree that you can become desensitized to violence by watching it constantly, except that everyone knows, even a 16-year-old boy from Jamaica knows that "The Matrix" is science fiction. It's not real life.

I think that they're stretching. They're trying to draw a parallel between Hinckley watching "Taxi Driver" 29 times and then acting it out. But this is simply not the same type of movie.

HEMMER: Jeff Toobin sat in that chair yesterday and said, "I see the defense trying to set up the penalty phase right now, even before they get there. So we shall see.

JORDAN: I agree.

HEMMER: Casey, thanks.

JORDAN: Great to be here. HEMMER: Casey Jordan.

You, too.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 9, 2003 - 07:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The mental state of Lee Boyd Malvo at the time of the D.C. area sniper killings is now the focus in his murder trial. Testifying for the defense yesterday, a psychologist said Malvo told him he was the spotter and not the shooter in the killing of an FBI analyst. The psychologist says Malvo feared that now convicted sniper John Muhammad would kill him if he deviated from their plan.
Malvo's lawyers contend that Muhammad brainwashed the teenager.

With us to talk about it, criminologist Casey Jordan back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Nice to see you.

The psychologist says that Malvo told him that he was going to cover for Muhammad at all costs.

What does that suggest to you?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, the timing of this is just a little bit too convenient. There's no doubt that there was definitely an allegiance between Malvo and Muhammad, that they had kind of a master-disciple or a mentorship type of relationship. But the testimony that Malvo would have given when he was first apprehended, in which he claimed to be the shooter, is probably the most credible testimony.

It's just a little too convenient that now that Muhammad has been convicted and sentenced to death, he's doing a switcheroo and now saying that it was Muhammad all along who was the shooter.

HEMMER: Take me through a few things here. The psychologist, Dewey Cornell, testifies that Muhammad psychologically indoctrinated Malvo. Look at some of the things he pointed to -- isolating him from family and friends; exposing him to violent videos and games, trained him to use weapons; controlled his diet, hygiene and sleep; lectured him on political philosophy.

A brainwashing tactic that you've seen before or not?

JORDAN: I wouldn't call it a brainwashing tactic. Yes, there's definitely issues of power and control. Muhammad liked control. Malvo was a very good subject for that control. And yet, as a shopping list that looks overwhelming. But if we isolate each of those little variables -- watching violent videos, what 16-year-old doesn't these days? Keeping him isolated. A lot of kids go home to an empty house and are isolated with their parents.

It is just not enough, even taken as a totality, to really convince most people -- and I think the jury won't be bought into it either -- that this was the type of brainwashing that we've seen, for instance, with the Manson case or with the Patty Hearst case.

HEMMER: Can you make a distinction between someone who is brainwashed and somebody who's insane? Are they one and the same or are they distinctively different?

JORDAN: They are extremely different because the legal definition of insanity has very little to do with the psychiatric definition of insanity. Malvo can have extreme mental disturbances, even be mentally ill, even psychologically insane, and not meet the legal definition of insanity, which really hinges on did he understand the difference between right and wrong, was he able to choose right over wrong, did he know what he was doing was wrong.

It's very simple. The fact that they hid in the car, had a very elaborate plan to get away, that they fled from the crime scene indicates that Malvo knew what he was doing was wrong at all times.

HEMMER: So is there any distinction between a spotter and a shooter, do you think then, in a case like this?

JORDAN: I don't think there will be in the minds of the jury. It's important in terms of going after the death penalty in this particular jurisdiction that they show Malvo was the shooter. But in the minds of the jury, I don't think they're going to be able to distinguish between the capability of Muhammad and Malvo.

HEMMER: Yes, quickly, an eight minute clip from the movie "Matrix." He says he watched it a hundred times.

How much of an impact would that have on someone, or even the jury? When you're watching something a hundred times, a lot of times it dulls the senses when you see it over and over and over again.

JORDAN: Well, I would agree that you can become desensitized to violence by watching it constantly, except that everyone knows, even a 16-year-old boy from Jamaica knows that "The Matrix" is science fiction. It's not real life.

I think that they're stretching. They're trying to draw a parallel between Hinckley watching "Taxi Driver" 29 times and then acting it out. But this is simply not the same type of movie.

HEMMER: Jeff Toobin sat in that chair yesterday and said, "I see the defense trying to set up the penalty phase right now, even before they get there. So we shall see.

JORDAN: I agree.

HEMMER: Casey, thanks.

JORDAN: Great to be here. HEMMER: Casey Jordan.

You, too.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com