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American Morning

Interview With Robert Baer, Frank Rubino

Aired December 15, 2003 - 09:19   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: To find out how much he may say and how us interrogators will get him to say it, let's go live to Miami, Florida and talk with Frank Rubino, a criminal attorney. And in Washington, D.C. Robert Baer, a former CIA operations Officer. Appreciate both of you joining us this morning.
Robert, I want to start off with you. In the first couple of days of interrogation, is that the key, the key time? Do you have to move in quick?

ROBERT BAER, FRM. CIA, OPERATIONS OFFICER: No. We've got plenty of time with this guy. You're going to wear him down. You're going to deprive him of information. He's going to fall gradually under the dependence of the interrogators. And as time goes along, he's going to, we hope, not resist.

COOPER: Frank, his -- do you think he should be treated as a POW? I mean it would seem that would be in his best interest. Is that something you think he'll ask for?

FRANK RUBINO, CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: Well, he's actually being treated as a POW to the degree that he's being given food, shelter, water, clothing. That's all really a POW status does. It just protects him in that respect. It does not protect him from interrogation in any way.

COOPER: But legally he has not been declared a POW because if he was, that does carry with it some limitations on how he may be interrogated.

RUBINO: Well, the real question is, is he a POW? Was he a combatant or was he the president of the country? If he was a soldier he'd be a POW But if he's the president of the country, and not a soldier, then he was not, quote, "a combatant" and would not fall under the Geneva Convention.

COOPER: Robert, you say we have time to work this man. But how do interrogators do it? I mean how do you go about trying to extract information from someone who, on the face of it, from all reports right now, is being a wiseass and not giving up anything?

BAER: Well he might connect with one of the interrogators at some point. And he's very egotistical.

And in combination with taking all the information the CIA and Defense Department's collected on the ground, present it with them, say, The case is made. Now go ahead and explain yourself. He may just start filling in the gaps to show that yes, he did order that or he didn't order that.

I think once he understands that he's headed for a trial, he may cooperate. On the other hand, he's a difficult type and he may remain defiant to the end. That's always a possibility.

COOPER: Frank, what motivation do you think there is for him to be cooperative? His sons are dead, his daughters have asylum in another country. Why would he talk?

RUBINO: You know, it's an interesting question. What does the interrogator have to offer to him in order to break him, in order to get him to talk?

Obviously no one is going to trade the death penalty for his cooperation, so it's going to be more of a matter of the interrogator getting his friendship and getting his confidence than actually having anything to really trade.

COOPER: Robert, with a prisoner who is as high level as Saddam Hussein was, does it take a particularly specialized touch? I mean, are there interrogators -- it's not just, you know, like interrogating some foot soldier.

BAER: No, no. We know the man's intelligent, to a degree. And he's sophisticated. And I think if you bring an interrogator who's older, who can start talking about history, that understands Iraq, I think you can appeal to a side of Saddam that he may give up some information. But it's going to be a tough road.

COOPER: It's fascinating to hear both of your insights this morning. Robert Baer and Frank Rubino, appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 15, 2003 - 09:19   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: To find out how much he may say and how us interrogators will get him to say it, let's go live to Miami, Florida and talk with Frank Rubino, a criminal attorney. And in Washington, D.C. Robert Baer, a former CIA operations Officer. Appreciate both of you joining us this morning.
Robert, I want to start off with you. In the first couple of days of interrogation, is that the key, the key time? Do you have to move in quick?

ROBERT BAER, FRM. CIA, OPERATIONS OFFICER: No. We've got plenty of time with this guy. You're going to wear him down. You're going to deprive him of information. He's going to fall gradually under the dependence of the interrogators. And as time goes along, he's going to, we hope, not resist.

COOPER: Frank, his -- do you think he should be treated as a POW? I mean it would seem that would be in his best interest. Is that something you think he'll ask for?

FRANK RUBINO, CRIMINAL ATTORNEY: Well, he's actually being treated as a POW to the degree that he's being given food, shelter, water, clothing. That's all really a POW status does. It just protects him in that respect. It does not protect him from interrogation in any way.

COOPER: But legally he has not been declared a POW because if he was, that does carry with it some limitations on how he may be interrogated.

RUBINO: Well, the real question is, is he a POW? Was he a combatant or was he the president of the country? If he was a soldier he'd be a POW But if he's the president of the country, and not a soldier, then he was not, quote, "a combatant" and would not fall under the Geneva Convention.

COOPER: Robert, you say we have time to work this man. But how do interrogators do it? I mean how do you go about trying to extract information from someone who, on the face of it, from all reports right now, is being a wiseass and not giving up anything?

BAER: Well he might connect with one of the interrogators at some point. And he's very egotistical.

And in combination with taking all the information the CIA and Defense Department's collected on the ground, present it with them, say, The case is made. Now go ahead and explain yourself. He may just start filling in the gaps to show that yes, he did order that or he didn't order that.

I think once he understands that he's headed for a trial, he may cooperate. On the other hand, he's a difficult type and he may remain defiant to the end. That's always a possibility.

COOPER: Frank, what motivation do you think there is for him to be cooperative? His sons are dead, his daughters have asylum in another country. Why would he talk?

RUBINO: You know, it's an interesting question. What does the interrogator have to offer to him in order to break him, in order to get him to talk?

Obviously no one is going to trade the death penalty for his cooperation, so it's going to be more of a matter of the interrogator getting his friendship and getting his confidence than actually having anything to really trade.

COOPER: Robert, with a prisoner who is as high level as Saddam Hussein was, does it take a particularly specialized touch? I mean, are there interrogators -- it's not just, you know, like interrogating some foot soldier.

BAER: No, no. We know the man's intelligent, to a degree. And he's sophisticated. And I think if you bring an interrogator who's older, who can start talking about history, that understands Iraq, I think you can appeal to a side of Saddam that he may give up some information. But it's going to be a tough road.

COOPER: It's fascinating to hear both of your insights this morning. Robert Baer and Frank Rubino, appreciate you joining us. Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com