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American Morning

President Bush Says Former Iraqi Dictator Deserves Ultimate Penalty

Aired December 17, 2003 - 08:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Just days after Saddam Hussein's capture, President Bush says the former Iraqi dictator deserves the ultimate penalty. The president's strong words come as new poll numbers show the capture has boosted Americans' view of the president.
John King is live for us at the White House this morning -- John, good morning.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad.

Fresh evidence, as you noted, that the president, at least temporarily, is getting a political boost from the capture of Saddam Hussein.

Let's take a look. New numbers out in the "New York Times" this morning. A "New York Times" poll shows the president's approval rating now at 58 percent. That's up six points from a poll taken just before the capture of Saddam Hussein, so an obvious boost for the president in the short-term.

The "New York Times" also asked respondents to the poll how are things going, are things going well in Iraq. Sixty-four percent after the arrest of Saddam Hussein said things were going well, up from 47 percent in the days just before that capture. So obviously a boost for the president.

The focus now is on bringing Saddam Hussein to trial. The president says the administration will be closely involved in that process. He also made clear what he thinks would be the right justice for the former Iraqi leader. But the president said that will not and should not be his decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think he ought to receive the ultimate penalty and for what he's done to his people. I mean this is a disgusting tyrant who deserves justice, the ultimate justice. But that will be decided not by the president of the United States, but by the citizens of Iraq, in one form or another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: In that interview with ABC yesterday, the president also said the United States remains on the hunt for al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. Mr. Bush suggesting that, like Saddam Hussein, bin Laden probably hiding in a hole somewhere. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Bin Laden's on the run. I mean he's, as I like to say, certainly not leading any parades these days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The president says he does not want, at this point, to be into a daily back and forth with the Democrats who are trying to take his job away. But he said he's very much looking forward to next year's reelection campaign. And, Soledad, First Lady Laura Bush also saying in that interview she's looking forward to the campaign, as well, noting it will be, for the president and the first lady, their final campaign -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: John King at the White House for us this morning.

John, thanks.

President Bush says Saddam Hussein deserves the ultimate penalty for his crimes.

One man who has spent the last decade compiling the records to document the atrocities of Saddam Hussein's regime joining us this morning. In fact, the founder of the Iraqi Memory Foundation, also a professor at Brandies University, Kanan Makiya, joining us this morning.

It's nice to see you, Professor.

Thanks for being with us.

KANAN MAKIYA, PROFESSOR, BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY, FOUNDER, IRAQI MEMORY FOUNDATION: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: You have millions of pages of documents that record the cruelty of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Give me a sense as specifically as you can of what these documents show.

MAKIYA: The documents show the depth of penetration and control of the population of Iraq at all levels. We have, for instance, registers of all, in the entire secondary school population of Iraq, in which every child is identified by school, by area, by district and by family, with all the details of that family, including the political positions taken by any member of its family and they're spelled out to varying degrees on, first of all, the 1991 Gulf War, the uprising and various other political sort of measuring sticks; concluding with a notes section in which, for every child, and marked sometimes in red, it's noted if he has a relative executed, imprisoned and for what reason.

So what you have, in effect, here, for instance, is a register, a blacklist for the entire schoolchildren population of Iraq, one which will forever haunt this child as they proceed through life. We have personal party member files in which party members, some 70,000 to 80,000 of those files in which party members write reports about why they ought to be upgraded in rank in the party. And to do that, they will explain how many people they're informed upon, what -- these are, of course, considered plus points from the point of view of the party leaders judging them.

We also have files on mass graves. We have files on rumors. They collected rumors. There were special departments of the Baathist Party that collected those.

O'BRIEN: Let me interrupt you here because you're giving us this litany.

Why would the regime keep such clear documentation of its atrocities?

MAKIYA: Because it didn't trust anyone. When you have a regime whose fundamental cardinal principle of existence is total distrust and the installation of fear inside its own citizenry and, therefore, each citizen is afraid of his neighbor, is afraid of his, even members of his own family, he's afraid to talk freely in front of his children, when you have that principle at stake, to know that any order has been carried out, you must have a paper trail that takes you down, that allows you to punish this, that and the other individual.

There's an absolute veritable obsession with paper, with keeping files.

O'BRIEN: And, in fact, U.S. forces have found even more files. Have they turned those files over to you? I have to imagine they would be helpful to what you are compiling.

MAKIYA: Unfortunately, the U.S. government has thus far done nothing to facilitate work on those files. And it is, this is the evidentiary basis for a proper trial of Saddam Hussein. Thus far, those trials have been kept completely sealed from people like myself, in spite of repeated requests over months and months. And I fear also that the files may be handled not responsibly and just treated in a populist lifestyle. These are very sensitive documents. An institution has to be created, governed by a special law. The access to the information should be very carefully controlled. We need to model ourselves on something like the German government's Gauck Commission, which deals with the former Stasi files.

O'BRIEN: Millions of files all in your possession at this time.

Professor Makiya, thank you for joining us this morning.

We appreciate it.

MAKIYA: Thank you for inviting me.

O'BRIEN: And let's take you back to Bill in Baghdad.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Soledad, at first glance here in Baghdad, it's truly a city that can be overwhelming, the size of Chicago, five million people, all now in the middle of an ongoing war.

A bit earlier today we went out, hitting the streets of Baghdad. What visitors at first glance may notice when they arrive here in the capital city and what that says about life today, not just for the Iraqis, but also for the U.S. military.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: The U.S. military is literally everywhere here in Baghdad and once you start to see them mix in and among the Iraqi people, in and among the traffic, you start to see that if you are a member of the Iraqi insurgency, how easy a target the U.S. military can be at the right time.

This is one of the newest frustrations for Iraqis, a shortage on gasoline. This line literally snakes down the road and around the corner. It goes behind for another half a mile. Earlier today, we saw a line that was more than two miles in length.

There's a shortage on supply and there's a great number of cars in this city. We talked to a cab driver. He waits in line for gas eight hours a day every third day, just so he can make money. "This is my business," he tells us. "What kind of solution is that? What kind of way is that to earn a living?"

You want traffic? Baghdad's got plenty of traffic. Since the war ended, the number of cars in the Iraqi capital has nearly tripled. Despite that, though, there's a certain control to the chaos. Yet not a single traffic light has worked in this town in months.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And, again, a very basic, very rudimentary look about life today in the Iraqi capital. Beneath the surface, there are so many different avenues right now that are running through society. Last night I had a very long conversation with General Martin Dempsey of the U.S. Army. He's in charge of Baghdad for the U.S. military. He says there was so much control under Saddam Hussein that the Iraqis right now, with that lid taken off, are just getting used to right now not having that control. He says the growing pains are temporary, the growing pains are obvious and right now for most Iraqis they would like those pains to simply go away.

Likewise, for the U.S. military. They are convinced yet again, Soledad, in every conversation you have with them, that it's just a question of time, months and not years, before Iraq is back on its feet, operating better than it was under Saddam Hussein -- back to you now in New York.

O'BRIEN: Interesting to hear.

All right, Bill, we'll continue to check in with you throughout the morning.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




Ultimate Penalty>


Aired December 17, 2003 - 08:05   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Just days after Saddam Hussein's capture, President Bush says the former Iraqi dictator deserves the ultimate penalty. The president's strong words come as new poll numbers show the capture has boosted Americans' view of the president.
John King is live for us at the White House this morning -- John, good morning.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad.

Fresh evidence, as you noted, that the president, at least temporarily, is getting a political boost from the capture of Saddam Hussein.

Let's take a look. New numbers out in the "New York Times" this morning. A "New York Times" poll shows the president's approval rating now at 58 percent. That's up six points from a poll taken just before the capture of Saddam Hussein, so an obvious boost for the president in the short-term.

The "New York Times" also asked respondents to the poll how are things going, are things going well in Iraq. Sixty-four percent after the arrest of Saddam Hussein said things were going well, up from 47 percent in the days just before that capture. So obviously a boost for the president.

The focus now is on bringing Saddam Hussein to trial. The president says the administration will be closely involved in that process. He also made clear what he thinks would be the right justice for the former Iraqi leader. But the president said that will not and should not be his decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think he ought to receive the ultimate penalty and for what he's done to his people. I mean this is a disgusting tyrant who deserves justice, the ultimate justice. But that will be decided not by the president of the United States, but by the citizens of Iraq, in one form or another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: In that interview with ABC yesterday, the president also said the United States remains on the hunt for al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. Mr. Bush suggesting that, like Saddam Hussein, bin Laden probably hiding in a hole somewhere. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Bin Laden's on the run. I mean he's, as I like to say, certainly not leading any parades these days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The president says he does not want, at this point, to be into a daily back and forth with the Democrats who are trying to take his job away. But he said he's very much looking forward to next year's reelection campaign. And, Soledad, First Lady Laura Bush also saying in that interview she's looking forward to the campaign, as well, noting it will be, for the president and the first lady, their final campaign -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: John King at the White House for us this morning.

John, thanks.

President Bush says Saddam Hussein deserves the ultimate penalty for his crimes.

One man who has spent the last decade compiling the records to document the atrocities of Saddam Hussein's regime joining us this morning. In fact, the founder of the Iraqi Memory Foundation, also a professor at Brandies University, Kanan Makiya, joining us this morning.

It's nice to see you, Professor.

Thanks for being with us.

KANAN MAKIYA, PROFESSOR, BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY, FOUNDER, IRAQI MEMORY FOUNDATION: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: You have millions of pages of documents that record the cruelty of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Give me a sense as specifically as you can of what these documents show.

MAKIYA: The documents show the depth of penetration and control of the population of Iraq at all levels. We have, for instance, registers of all, in the entire secondary school population of Iraq, in which every child is identified by school, by area, by district and by family, with all the details of that family, including the political positions taken by any member of its family and they're spelled out to varying degrees on, first of all, the 1991 Gulf War, the uprising and various other political sort of measuring sticks; concluding with a notes section in which, for every child, and marked sometimes in red, it's noted if he has a relative executed, imprisoned and for what reason.

So what you have, in effect, here, for instance, is a register, a blacklist for the entire schoolchildren population of Iraq, one which will forever haunt this child as they proceed through life. We have personal party member files in which party members, some 70,000 to 80,000 of those files in which party members write reports about why they ought to be upgraded in rank in the party. And to do that, they will explain how many people they're informed upon, what -- these are, of course, considered plus points from the point of view of the party leaders judging them.

We also have files on mass graves. We have files on rumors. They collected rumors. There were special departments of the Baathist Party that collected those.

O'BRIEN: Let me interrupt you here because you're giving us this litany.

Why would the regime keep such clear documentation of its atrocities?

MAKIYA: Because it didn't trust anyone. When you have a regime whose fundamental cardinal principle of existence is total distrust and the installation of fear inside its own citizenry and, therefore, each citizen is afraid of his neighbor, is afraid of his, even members of his own family, he's afraid to talk freely in front of his children, when you have that principle at stake, to know that any order has been carried out, you must have a paper trail that takes you down, that allows you to punish this, that and the other individual.

There's an absolute veritable obsession with paper, with keeping files.

O'BRIEN: And, in fact, U.S. forces have found even more files. Have they turned those files over to you? I have to imagine they would be helpful to what you are compiling.

MAKIYA: Unfortunately, the U.S. government has thus far done nothing to facilitate work on those files. And it is, this is the evidentiary basis for a proper trial of Saddam Hussein. Thus far, those trials have been kept completely sealed from people like myself, in spite of repeated requests over months and months. And I fear also that the files may be handled not responsibly and just treated in a populist lifestyle. These are very sensitive documents. An institution has to be created, governed by a special law. The access to the information should be very carefully controlled. We need to model ourselves on something like the German government's Gauck Commission, which deals with the former Stasi files.

O'BRIEN: Millions of files all in your possession at this time.

Professor Makiya, thank you for joining us this morning.

We appreciate it.

MAKIYA: Thank you for inviting me.

O'BRIEN: And let's take you back to Bill in Baghdad.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Soledad, at first glance here in Baghdad, it's truly a city that can be overwhelming, the size of Chicago, five million people, all now in the middle of an ongoing war.

A bit earlier today we went out, hitting the streets of Baghdad. What visitors at first glance may notice when they arrive here in the capital city and what that says about life today, not just for the Iraqis, but also for the U.S. military.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: The U.S. military is literally everywhere here in Baghdad and once you start to see them mix in and among the Iraqi people, in and among the traffic, you start to see that if you are a member of the Iraqi insurgency, how easy a target the U.S. military can be at the right time.

This is one of the newest frustrations for Iraqis, a shortage on gasoline. This line literally snakes down the road and around the corner. It goes behind for another half a mile. Earlier today, we saw a line that was more than two miles in length.

There's a shortage on supply and there's a great number of cars in this city. We talked to a cab driver. He waits in line for gas eight hours a day every third day, just so he can make money. "This is my business," he tells us. "What kind of solution is that? What kind of way is that to earn a living?"

You want traffic? Baghdad's got plenty of traffic. Since the war ended, the number of cars in the Iraqi capital has nearly tripled. Despite that, though, there's a certain control to the chaos. Yet not a single traffic light has worked in this town in months.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And, again, a very basic, very rudimentary look about life today in the Iraqi capital. Beneath the surface, there are so many different avenues right now that are running through society. Last night I had a very long conversation with General Martin Dempsey of the U.S. Army. He's in charge of Baghdad for the U.S. military. He says there was so much control under Saddam Hussein that the Iraqis right now, with that lid taken off, are just getting used to right now not having that control. He says the growing pains are temporary, the growing pains are obvious and right now for most Iraqis they would like those pains to simply go away.

Likewise, for the U.S. military. They are convinced yet again, Soledad, in every conversation you have with them, that it's just a question of time, months and not years, before Iraq is back on its feet, operating better than it was under Saddam Hussein -- back to you now in New York.

O'BRIEN: Interesting to hear.

All right, Bill, we'll continue to check in with you throughout the morning.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




Ultimate Penalty>