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American Morning
Legal Questions Involved in Latest Developments in Enron Case
Aired January 09, 2004 - 08:23 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Now that a federal judge has agreed to accept a plea deal from the wife of Andy Fastow, prosecutors have set their sights on his and her plea bargain. The deal with Lea Fastow would send her to prison for five months. The Feds hope it'll lead to a deal with her husband that would call for him to testify against other key Enron figures.
Our CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, here to talk about it -- good morning.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.
HEMMER: Not to put you on the spot, but since you're here, we will anyway. What you wrote in the "New Yorker," what was it, fall of last year...
TOOBIN: In October.
HEMMER: October.
TOOBIN: Believe me, I'm very familiar with this story now.
HEMMER: The point you made is that you don't think some of the bigger names, Skilling and Ken Lay, would face indictments, prosecution.
TOOBIN: So are you asking me whether I'm eating crow today?
HEMMER: I don't -- does your mind change about it? Not, because you're not necessarily wrong at this point.
TOOBIN: No, I mean I'm not wrong yet, but I think it is -- this is a huge victory for prosecutors. This makes a big difference. Let's put it this way, I don't know if Skilling and Lay will be prosecuted, but the only way they could be prosecuted is if they make a deal with Andy Fastow and it looks like they are making a deal with Andy Fastow. And he is the crucial witness against them. It's a tremendous victory for prosecutors.
HEMMER: And help me understand something about his wife. What does she know? She was an assistant, right?
TOOBIN: She is not a witness that is going to help them get to Skilling and Lay. She was used as leverage to get a plea deal against her husband.
HEMMER: They're squeezing her... TOOBIN: They squeezed her...
HEMMER: ... then, to get to Andy.
TOOBIN: ... to get to Andy, and it seems to have worked to perfection.
HEMMER: The judge has said I'm not going to accept it just yet. The deal has not gone through completely. In a situation like this, what holds it up?
TOOBIN: This is a fairly common issue in plea bargains. The prosecutors and defense lawyers really want to work out exactly what the sentence will be so everybody knows what's going on. Judges don't like deals like that. They say hey, I'm the judge, I decide the sentences. You guys don't decide the sentences. So I think that usually gets finessed in such a way. Plea bargains that come this far virtually always end in a plea, and I'm certain this will, too.
HEMMER: Is it possible for Andy Fastow, depending on what information he eventually gives over, if he does, if he is willing to cooperate, that he could avoid jail time altogether?
TOOBIN: Not really. I mean a 10 year sentence can't go down to nothing. But when we hear about him negotiating a 10 year sentence, it's not really a 10 year sentence. It's a 10 year sentence with a promise that prosecutors will let the judge know how much he cooperated and thus get his sentence reduced. He will not avoid jail time, but he very well may serve much less than 10 years.
HEMMER: Quickly, in white collar crime, 10 years, how severe is that considered?
TOOBIN: A very long sentence. I mean that is an extremely long sentence in white collar crime. Sam Waksal, who got a very long sentence in white collar, he got about seven or eight years. If he actually gets a 10 year sentence, that would be a very long sentence.
HEMMER: Thanks for owning up.
How did that crow taste?
TOOBIN: Wrong, wrong is wrong and that's me, baby. You know, it's true?
HEMMER: That's right. That's right.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Technically not yet.
TOOBIN: Not yet, that's right. But, it's an appetizer of crow. It's not the full meal yet.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Case>
Aired January 9, 2004 - 08:23 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Now that a federal judge has agreed to accept a plea deal from the wife of Andy Fastow, prosecutors have set their sights on his and her plea bargain. The deal with Lea Fastow would send her to prison for five months. The Feds hope it'll lead to a deal with her husband that would call for him to testify against other key Enron figures.
Our CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, here to talk about it -- good morning.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.
HEMMER: Not to put you on the spot, but since you're here, we will anyway. What you wrote in the "New Yorker," what was it, fall of last year...
TOOBIN: In October.
HEMMER: October.
TOOBIN: Believe me, I'm very familiar with this story now.
HEMMER: The point you made is that you don't think some of the bigger names, Skilling and Ken Lay, would face indictments, prosecution.
TOOBIN: So are you asking me whether I'm eating crow today?
HEMMER: I don't -- does your mind change about it? Not, because you're not necessarily wrong at this point.
TOOBIN: No, I mean I'm not wrong yet, but I think it is -- this is a huge victory for prosecutors. This makes a big difference. Let's put it this way, I don't know if Skilling and Lay will be prosecuted, but the only way they could be prosecuted is if they make a deal with Andy Fastow and it looks like they are making a deal with Andy Fastow. And he is the crucial witness against them. It's a tremendous victory for prosecutors.
HEMMER: And help me understand something about his wife. What does she know? She was an assistant, right?
TOOBIN: She is not a witness that is going to help them get to Skilling and Lay. She was used as leverage to get a plea deal against her husband.
HEMMER: They're squeezing her... TOOBIN: They squeezed her...
HEMMER: ... then, to get to Andy.
TOOBIN: ... to get to Andy, and it seems to have worked to perfection.
HEMMER: The judge has said I'm not going to accept it just yet. The deal has not gone through completely. In a situation like this, what holds it up?
TOOBIN: This is a fairly common issue in plea bargains. The prosecutors and defense lawyers really want to work out exactly what the sentence will be so everybody knows what's going on. Judges don't like deals like that. They say hey, I'm the judge, I decide the sentences. You guys don't decide the sentences. So I think that usually gets finessed in such a way. Plea bargains that come this far virtually always end in a plea, and I'm certain this will, too.
HEMMER: Is it possible for Andy Fastow, depending on what information he eventually gives over, if he does, if he is willing to cooperate, that he could avoid jail time altogether?
TOOBIN: Not really. I mean a 10 year sentence can't go down to nothing. But when we hear about him negotiating a 10 year sentence, it's not really a 10 year sentence. It's a 10 year sentence with a promise that prosecutors will let the judge know how much he cooperated and thus get his sentence reduced. He will not avoid jail time, but he very well may serve much less than 10 years.
HEMMER: Quickly, in white collar crime, 10 years, how severe is that considered?
TOOBIN: A very long sentence. I mean that is an extremely long sentence in white collar crime. Sam Waksal, who got a very long sentence in white collar, he got about seven or eight years. If he actually gets a 10 year sentence, that would be a very long sentence.
HEMMER: Thanks for owning up.
How did that crow taste?
TOOBIN: Wrong, wrong is wrong and that's me, baby. You know, it's true?
HEMMER: That's right. That's right.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Technically not yet.
TOOBIN: Not yet, that's right. But, it's an appetizer of crow. It's not the full meal yet.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Case>
