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American Morning

Bush vs. O'Neill

Aired January 13, 2004 - 07:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush is defending his decision to go to war against Iraq, despite allegations from his former treasury secretary that war planning was actually under way months before September 11.
During a summit yester (ph) -- yesterday, rather, in Monterrey, Mexico, Mr. Bush said his decision about the war was -- quote -- "the right one for America. Ad he noted that removing Saddam Hussein from power was official U.S. policy since 1998.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Like the previous administration, we were for regime change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Meanwhile, the Treasury Department wants to know how an apparently classified document made its way into a TV report. The report outlined former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill's criticism of the Bush White House.

Dana Bash is traveling with the president, and she joins this morning live from Monterey.

Dana -- good morning.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

And the president is here in Mexico, hoping to make headlines on his immigration proposal and other issues surrounding this summit. He is here to attend. But, as you mentioned, he can't escape questions about his former treasury secretary's tell-all.

And, Soledad, the White House's hope is the less they say publicly about this, the more likely it is that it will go away. So, the president did not answer the question yesterday as to whether or not he felt betrayed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: ... former Secretary O'Neill's service to our country. We worked together during some difficult times. We worked together when America was attacked on September the 11th, which changed how I viewed the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BASH: But the president did try to rebut O'Neill's allegation that war was planned from day one of his administration, saying, as you mentioned, that regime change was already the U.S. policy, so, of course, it was something that they discussed. And also, there were problems in the no-fly zone over Iraq. That was also a point of discussion. But the president maintained it was 9/11 that ultimately led him to go to war with Iraq -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: A quick question for you about this Treasury Department now looking into how a secret document could have made its way into this televised interview, and many questions about that. Some people saying: Did Paul O'Neill, in fact, hand that document over? What's the latest on that, Dana?

BASH: Well, Soledad, what the Treasury Department says is that they want to find out whether or not O'Neill actually broke the law. They say that the documents shown on "60 Minutes" had the word "secret" on it. And what they need to find out is whether or not it was classified. Treasury cabinet members, all cabinet members are allowed to take speeches, phone logs, things like that, but nothing that is classified. That is why they say they need to look into what exactly this document was -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Dana Bash is traveling with the president. Dana, thanks a lot.

Let's turn now to CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin for his take on the potential legal hurdles now facing Paul O'Neill.

Nice to see you. Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: The "60 Minutes" interview, really, 24 hours later the Treasury Department makes this announcement, not quite an investigation yet. They're interested in understanding how this secret or classified document made its way into the hands of the "60 Minutes" producers. How big of a problem could this for Paul O'Neill?

TOOBIN: It could be a big problem, but these investigations, in general, tend to wind up going nowhere. It is illegal to knowingly take a secret document, remove it, disclose it to anyone who is not authorized to have it. However, it is very often very ambiguous what's actually classified. And in a situation where apparently here Paul O'Neill said to the Treasury Department, send me all the documents I'm entitled to, if they sent him a secret memo...

O'BRIEN: He's in the clear.

TOOBIN: He's probably in the clear, yes.

O'BRIEN: As long as everything was sent as opposed to something being taken.

TOOBIN: That he removed himself. O'BRIEN: What if, worst case scenario for Paul O'Neill, it turns out, yes, a secret document was taken, what kind of potential -- how serious of a crime is that?

TOOBIN: Well, it is a crime. It's a felony to remove a classified document to give it to an unauthorized person. These kinds of investigations almost never go anywhere. But, in fact, it is a crime, and it's very unpleasant to be investigated about one.

O'BRIEN: You've said that these things can get murky at times. I mean -- and to some degree, in this story I've read the word "secret," the word "classified," the word "important," about to be -- I mean, what's the difference between a secret and a classified?

TOOBIN: Well, there are three levels of classification. There is top secret, there is secret, and there is confidential, depending on how serious a disclosure would be. But just if you remember, you know, the case against Captain Yee, who was the chaplain in Guantanamo, he was ultimately being investigated for removal of classified information. When they actually took him to a preliminary hearing, it became ambiguous whether the documents were really classified.

So, a lot of the time what is classified and at what level is much more an art than a science.

O'BRIEN: You've said you had a similar experience when you were working on a case. You were a prosecutor in a case, which involved a lot of top-secret documents. And at the same time, you wanted to write a book. How did you deal with that?

TOOBIN: I did, in fact. Yes, what happened was I was one of the prosecutors in the Oliver North case in 1989. I wrote a book about it. I was investigated for removing classified documents. And I had to get clearance to write the book. The people in charge wouldn't give me the clearance. I had to go to court to get authorization to say, hey, you know, there was nothing improper in the book. I ultimately won the right to publish the book, and the book was published.

But this is typical of what happens. It's inconvenient. It's unpleasant. And God knows it was extremely unpleasant for me to be accused of doing anything unethical, improper. But ultimately, I got the right to publish the book, and the issue went away.

They tend to go away, these issues, but the process is ugly.

O'BRIEN: Jeff...

TOOBIN: Because I know personally.

O'BRIEN: And I've got to imagine, expensive, too.

TOOBIN: You bet.

O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, thanks a lot, as always. Nice to see you. TOOBIN: OK.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.






Aired January 13, 2004 - 07:04   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush is defending his decision to go to war against Iraq, despite allegations from his former treasury secretary that war planning was actually under way months before September 11.
During a summit yester (ph) -- yesterday, rather, in Monterrey, Mexico, Mr. Bush said his decision about the war was -- quote -- "the right one for America. Ad he noted that removing Saddam Hussein from power was official U.S. policy since 1998.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Like the previous administration, we were for regime change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Meanwhile, the Treasury Department wants to know how an apparently classified document made its way into a TV report. The report outlined former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill's criticism of the Bush White House.

Dana Bash is traveling with the president, and she joins this morning live from Monterey.

Dana -- good morning.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

And the president is here in Mexico, hoping to make headlines on his immigration proposal and other issues surrounding this summit. He is here to attend. But, as you mentioned, he can't escape questions about his former treasury secretary's tell-all.

And, Soledad, the White House's hope is the less they say publicly about this, the more likely it is that it will go away. So, the president did not answer the question yesterday as to whether or not he felt betrayed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: ... former Secretary O'Neill's service to our country. We worked together during some difficult times. We worked together when America was attacked on September the 11th, which changed how I viewed the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BASH: But the president did try to rebut O'Neill's allegation that war was planned from day one of his administration, saying, as you mentioned, that regime change was already the U.S. policy, so, of course, it was something that they discussed. And also, there were problems in the no-fly zone over Iraq. That was also a point of discussion. But the president maintained it was 9/11 that ultimately led him to go to war with Iraq -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: A quick question for you about this Treasury Department now looking into how a secret document could have made its way into this televised interview, and many questions about that. Some people saying: Did Paul O'Neill, in fact, hand that document over? What's the latest on that, Dana?

BASH: Well, Soledad, what the Treasury Department says is that they want to find out whether or not O'Neill actually broke the law. They say that the documents shown on "60 Minutes" had the word "secret" on it. And what they need to find out is whether or not it was classified. Treasury cabinet members, all cabinet members are allowed to take speeches, phone logs, things like that, but nothing that is classified. That is why they say they need to look into what exactly this document was -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Dana Bash is traveling with the president. Dana, thanks a lot.

Let's turn now to CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin for his take on the potential legal hurdles now facing Paul O'Neill.

Nice to see you. Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: The "60 Minutes" interview, really, 24 hours later the Treasury Department makes this announcement, not quite an investigation yet. They're interested in understanding how this secret or classified document made its way into the hands of the "60 Minutes" producers. How big of a problem could this for Paul O'Neill?

TOOBIN: It could be a big problem, but these investigations, in general, tend to wind up going nowhere. It is illegal to knowingly take a secret document, remove it, disclose it to anyone who is not authorized to have it. However, it is very often very ambiguous what's actually classified. And in a situation where apparently here Paul O'Neill said to the Treasury Department, send me all the documents I'm entitled to, if they sent him a secret memo...

O'BRIEN: He's in the clear.

TOOBIN: He's probably in the clear, yes.

O'BRIEN: As long as everything was sent as opposed to something being taken.

TOOBIN: That he removed himself. O'BRIEN: What if, worst case scenario for Paul O'Neill, it turns out, yes, a secret document was taken, what kind of potential -- how serious of a crime is that?

TOOBIN: Well, it is a crime. It's a felony to remove a classified document to give it to an unauthorized person. These kinds of investigations almost never go anywhere. But, in fact, it is a crime, and it's very unpleasant to be investigated about one.

O'BRIEN: You've said that these things can get murky at times. I mean -- and to some degree, in this story I've read the word "secret," the word "classified," the word "important," about to be -- I mean, what's the difference between a secret and a classified?

TOOBIN: Well, there are three levels of classification. There is top secret, there is secret, and there is confidential, depending on how serious a disclosure would be. But just if you remember, you know, the case against Captain Yee, who was the chaplain in Guantanamo, he was ultimately being investigated for removal of classified information. When they actually took him to a preliminary hearing, it became ambiguous whether the documents were really classified.

So, a lot of the time what is classified and at what level is much more an art than a science.

O'BRIEN: You've said you had a similar experience when you were working on a case. You were a prosecutor in a case, which involved a lot of top-secret documents. And at the same time, you wanted to write a book. How did you deal with that?

TOOBIN: I did, in fact. Yes, what happened was I was one of the prosecutors in the Oliver North case in 1989. I wrote a book about it. I was investigated for removing classified documents. And I had to get clearance to write the book. The people in charge wouldn't give me the clearance. I had to go to court to get authorization to say, hey, you know, there was nothing improper in the book. I ultimately won the right to publish the book, and the book was published.

But this is typical of what happens. It's inconvenient. It's unpleasant. And God knows it was extremely unpleasant for me to be accused of doing anything unethical, improper. But ultimately, I got the right to publish the book, and the issue went away.

They tend to go away, these issues, but the process is ugly.

O'BRIEN: Jeff...

TOOBIN: Because I know personally.

O'BRIEN: And I've got to imagine, expensive, too.

TOOBIN: You bet.

O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, thanks a lot, as always. Nice to see you. TOOBIN: OK.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.