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American Morning
Just Four Guantanamo Detainees Have Been Designated for Trial
Aired February 16, 2004 - 08:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The cases of prisoners now being held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba will now be reviewed every year to determine whether or not they should be released. It's one of the few concessions to a Pentagon policy that critics say deprives detainees of their basic legal rights.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld saying on Friday that GITMO prisoners could be held for years and for good reason.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: They're not common criminals. They're enemy combatants and terrorists who are being detained for acts of war against our country. And that is why different rules have to apply.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Now, today, just four detainees have been designated for trial.
Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift of the Navy is the military counsel for one of them, a man who already admits that he was the driver for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.
Lieutenant Commander Swift is our guest today from Philadelphia.
Commander, good morning to you.
LT. CMDR. CHARLES SWIFT, U.S. NAVY: Good morning.
HEMMER: Thanks for your time here on AMERICAN MORNING.
It's my understanding that you actually want your client to be charged as soon as possible.
What would that do for your case?
SWIFT: Well, Bill, it will move the case forward. Salim Ahmed Hamdan, my client, has been in detention for over two years and in solitary confinement for over two months. His case has sat while administrative decisions have been made. He claims that he's a civilian and he wants an opportunity to demonstrate that he is a civilian and shouldn't be held.
HEMMER: A couple of basic -- what would he likely be charged with? SWIFT: Well, we're not sure at this point. But whatever it is, it'll have to be a violation of the law of war, because that's the only thing that a military commission has jurisdiction to hear. And so one of the first questions is, is he properly before it? We're going to have to wait for charges for that.
HEMMER: How do you get to be the driver for Osama bin Laden?
SWIFT: Well, in this case, he was going to Tajikistan to help people who were struggling against the former communist government there and didn't make it because of both weather and politics. It was on his way home to Yemen when he was offered a job. About half of the Yemeni population has to work outside Yemen, seeking employment to send money home. So this was not untypical for him. And he ended up taking the job.
It just turned out that his employer was Osama bin Laden.
HEMMER: Then, help me understand this, and you claim, and you've said many times, that he was not affiliated with al Qaeda.
How can you make that argument knowing the security detail that Osama bin Laden employed for anyone to get near him for the past 10 years?
You know when reporters went to meet him, oftentimes they were driven around for days with blindfolds over their eyes just to get access to him.
SWIFT: Well, certainly there was a level of security. There's also a large civilian workforce engaged in something like that. I think people forget that Osama bin Laden also built roads and engaged in other activities besides simply the terrorist attacks that he was plotting. My client claims that he was among those civilians.
He wasn't a bodyguard, he was simply paid to be a driver. Originally he drove agricultural workers.
HEMMER: You heard Donald Rumsfeld on Friday talk about parole, annual reviews.
How does that sit with you and others representing detainees in GITMO?
SWIFT: Well, I can't speak for how it really sits with me. I don't think that's what's relevant. What's relevant is with my client. My client, Mr. Hamdan, currently is not eligible for that and it's worrisome to take that position, because, again, Mr. -- what Mr. Hamdan seeks is an independent and impartial hearing. And to hear that the person who's overall in charge of military commissions has already said that well, he must be a war criminal, makes you worry about whether his hearing will be independent and impartial.
HEMMER: Yes, but you contend that you can be a driver, you can be employed by Osama bin Laden without connected to the al Qaeda network. SWIFT: Certainly. You can, from the standpoint there, in our system he'd need to be proven guilty, that he actually conspired or joined that network, before he would be guilty of any crime.
HEMMER: So if you took that argument before an American judge or an American military tribunal, or whatever the format may be, how do you convince them that's the case? Why should Americans care that, whether or not he was a driver for Osama bin Laden and whether his story pans out and says, well, you know what, I had no connection with al Qaeda -- I was just a guy looking to make some bucks and send them back to Yemen?
SWIFT: Well, I think the important thing is in any of these systems, if it's a criminal justice system, it has to be about individual criminal responsibility, not about a group responsibility. And, you know, you've just shifted it over and said I have to prove something.
I think that even the Pentagon has said in statements on this, the burden of proof is on the government. They need to prove that he conspired, that he did something individually criminal, not that al Qaeda was occurred -- he doesn't have to prove that he wasn't a member of al Qaeda. Rather, they have to prove that he engaged in criminal activity.
If there's the evidence, then he, of course, will be found guilty. If there's not, then he's not guilty of a war crime. And that's what we're talking about here, is he guilty of a war crime, not is Osama bin Laden guilty of war crimes.
HEMMER: Charles Swift, lieutenant commander of the U.S. Navy, thanks for sharing your story and come back whenever there is movement or progress in your case, all right?
SWIFT: I'd be happy to.
HEMMER: Thank you much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Trial>
Aired February 16, 2004 - 08:16 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The cases of prisoners now being held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba will now be reviewed every year to determine whether or not they should be released. It's one of the few concessions to a Pentagon policy that critics say deprives detainees of their basic legal rights.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld saying on Friday that GITMO prisoners could be held for years and for good reason.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: They're not common criminals. They're enemy combatants and terrorists who are being detained for acts of war against our country. And that is why different rules have to apply.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Now, today, just four detainees have been designated for trial.
Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift of the Navy is the military counsel for one of them, a man who already admits that he was the driver for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.
Lieutenant Commander Swift is our guest today from Philadelphia.
Commander, good morning to you.
LT. CMDR. CHARLES SWIFT, U.S. NAVY: Good morning.
HEMMER: Thanks for your time here on AMERICAN MORNING.
It's my understanding that you actually want your client to be charged as soon as possible.
What would that do for your case?
SWIFT: Well, Bill, it will move the case forward. Salim Ahmed Hamdan, my client, has been in detention for over two years and in solitary confinement for over two months. His case has sat while administrative decisions have been made. He claims that he's a civilian and he wants an opportunity to demonstrate that he is a civilian and shouldn't be held.
HEMMER: A couple of basic -- what would he likely be charged with? SWIFT: Well, we're not sure at this point. But whatever it is, it'll have to be a violation of the law of war, because that's the only thing that a military commission has jurisdiction to hear. And so one of the first questions is, is he properly before it? We're going to have to wait for charges for that.
HEMMER: How do you get to be the driver for Osama bin Laden?
SWIFT: Well, in this case, he was going to Tajikistan to help people who were struggling against the former communist government there and didn't make it because of both weather and politics. It was on his way home to Yemen when he was offered a job. About half of the Yemeni population has to work outside Yemen, seeking employment to send money home. So this was not untypical for him. And he ended up taking the job.
It just turned out that his employer was Osama bin Laden.
HEMMER: Then, help me understand this, and you claim, and you've said many times, that he was not affiliated with al Qaeda.
How can you make that argument knowing the security detail that Osama bin Laden employed for anyone to get near him for the past 10 years?
You know when reporters went to meet him, oftentimes they were driven around for days with blindfolds over their eyes just to get access to him.
SWIFT: Well, certainly there was a level of security. There's also a large civilian workforce engaged in something like that. I think people forget that Osama bin Laden also built roads and engaged in other activities besides simply the terrorist attacks that he was plotting. My client claims that he was among those civilians.
He wasn't a bodyguard, he was simply paid to be a driver. Originally he drove agricultural workers.
HEMMER: You heard Donald Rumsfeld on Friday talk about parole, annual reviews.
How does that sit with you and others representing detainees in GITMO?
SWIFT: Well, I can't speak for how it really sits with me. I don't think that's what's relevant. What's relevant is with my client. My client, Mr. Hamdan, currently is not eligible for that and it's worrisome to take that position, because, again, Mr. -- what Mr. Hamdan seeks is an independent and impartial hearing. And to hear that the person who's overall in charge of military commissions has already said that well, he must be a war criminal, makes you worry about whether his hearing will be independent and impartial.
HEMMER: Yes, but you contend that you can be a driver, you can be employed by Osama bin Laden without connected to the al Qaeda network. SWIFT: Certainly. You can, from the standpoint there, in our system he'd need to be proven guilty, that he actually conspired or joined that network, before he would be guilty of any crime.
HEMMER: So if you took that argument before an American judge or an American military tribunal, or whatever the format may be, how do you convince them that's the case? Why should Americans care that, whether or not he was a driver for Osama bin Laden and whether his story pans out and says, well, you know what, I had no connection with al Qaeda -- I was just a guy looking to make some bucks and send them back to Yemen?
SWIFT: Well, I think the important thing is in any of these systems, if it's a criminal justice system, it has to be about individual criminal responsibility, not about a group responsibility. And, you know, you've just shifted it over and said I have to prove something.
I think that even the Pentagon has said in statements on this, the burden of proof is on the government. They need to prove that he conspired, that he did something individually criminal, not that al Qaeda was occurred -- he doesn't have to prove that he wasn't a member of al Qaeda. Rather, they have to prove that he engaged in criminal activity.
If there's the evidence, then he, of course, will be found guilty. If there's not, then he's not guilty of a war crime. And that's what we're talking about here, is he guilty of a war crime, not is Osama bin Laden guilty of war crimes.
HEMMER: Charles Swift, lieutenant commander of the U.S. Navy, thanks for sharing your story and come back whenever there is movement or progress in your case, all right?
SWIFT: I'd be happy to.
HEMMER: Thank you much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Trial>
