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American Morning
Interviews With Chuck Hagel, Carl Levin
Aired February 25, 2004 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The nation's top security chiefs have painted a very stark picture of the continuing threats to U.S. interests. Before the Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday, FBI Director Robert Mueller characterized America's enemies as "determined, resilient and patient" and CIA Director George Tenet said there are strong indications that al Qaeda will revisit missed targets until they succeed. He also said that a list of missed targets now includes the White House and the Capitol.
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel is a member of the Intelligence Committee.
He joins us this morning from Capitol Hill.
Nice to see you, sir.
Thanks for being with us.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Thank you.
Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Let's start by listening to a little bit of what Director Tenet had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: On aircraft plots alone, we have uncovered new plans to recruit pilots and to evade new security measures in Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Europe. Even catastrophic attacks on the scale of 9/11 remain within al Qaeda's reach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Catastrophic attacks on the scale of 9/11 remain within al Qaeda's reach. On one hand, you have this catastrophic warning. On the other, though, we now know how faulty U.S. intelligence can be.
How confident do you think we should be in these new warnings?
HAGEL: Well, I think as the director noted, and I think most Americans understand, this is a very unpredictable business. There are no certainties in it. We live at a very dangerous time in history. And I believe that the way to face this is be prepared. And that's what this country has been doing over the last two years since September 11, 2001. Also, we have to recognize that we are a very vulnerable, open society, the most vulnerable, open, transparent society in the history of man. So we have to adjust to that to keep some assuredness of the liberties and the freedoms that we have as Americans, but at the same time guard the interests, the security interests of this country.
We're doing that. I think we've made significant progress over the last two years in our intelligence network capabilities, capacities, relationships, interconnects. We have more to do, as the director of both the CIA and the FBI noted yesterday.
O'BRIEN: But at the same time, we have heard previously that al Qaeda has been nearly destroyed completely or mostly dismantled in some phrases. George Tenet reiterated that yesterday, but at the same time his new warnings almost seemed to go against those earlier statements.
HAGEL: Well, he also said, Soledad, that it isn't just al Qaeda that we're dealing with. There are variations of al Qaeda. There are other radical fundamentalist groups across the globe, cells everywhere, including the United States. Most of this is primarily focused in the Middle East. But it isn't just al Qaeda. We're dealing with many variations of terrorism and terrorist groups, and that's what he was warning about, as well.
I do think we've made significant progress against al Qaeda.
O'BRIEN: Here's what Tenet had to say about one of -- what turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers.
Let's listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENET: In 1999, the Germans gave us a name, Marwan. That's it. And a phone number. And we didn't sit on our hands. And I'm not going to go through the rest of it in open session. They didn't give us a first and a last name until after 9/11.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Do you think the information was followed up on?
HAGEL: Oh, I am sure it was followed up on. We get literally thousands and thousands of those tips daily. That was a significant tip. But in some fairness here -- and I think we have to keep this in perspective -- our intelligence agencies are inundated with an absolutely incredible avalanche of this kind of tip off record process.
Now, what they have to do is do a better job of processing that and working through getting to the core issues or the important issues so that they can then pass that on in a very real time way to the policy makers, the law enforcement people, our people around the world.
But in this particular case, what I know of it, Soledad, I think that the CIA did follow up appropriately and responsibly.
O'BRIEN: Senator Chuck Hagel joining us this morning.
Nice to see you, Senator.
Thanks for being with us.
HAGEL: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Now we take you across the political aisle now for some Democratic reaction to yesterday's hearing.
Also joining us from Capitol Hill is Democratic Senator Carl Levin of Michigan.
Nice to see you, sir.
Thank you very much for being with us.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: You heard not only from George Tenet, but also from FBI Director Mueller.
The director, Mueller, had the same things to say about the success in dismantling al Qaeda while there is still much to do.
Let's listen to a little bit of what Director Mueller had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: Al Qaeda's flexibility and adaptability continue to make them dangerous and unpredictable. The enemy still has the capability to strike in the United States and to strike United States' citizens abroad with little or no warning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: So then to what degree has al Qaeda been dismantled or diminished?
LEVIN: Well, they seem to be saying that it has not been dismantled and that there's great risk still. And I think we ought to take that as a very serious warning. But what it reinforces in my mind is the need that we have allies in the war against terrorism. We cannot win this war alone. We cannot act as unilaterally as we have. We cannot act as though the security of the rest of the world is of no concern to us, only our own security.
We've been much too go it alone in our approach to the world and we've turned around world opinion so it now is against us. It was very much with us after 9/11.
If we're going to win the war against al Qaeda, which was vividly described yesterday by our witnesses, we are going to have to have people around the world who are going to share information with us and intelligence with us, because we can't win this without their support and without allies.
O'BRIEN: Speaking of intelligence, there's information from German intelligence that they gave the first name and the phone number of one of the hijackers of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
George Tenet started talking about it and then he said I'm not going to discuss this in open session.
How damaging do you think this new information is and do you think they'll ever be a time when the American public will know exactly what was known?
LEVIN: Yes, as far as I know, we knew nothing more than that first name. But there is other situations which were part of the report of our joint investigation by the two intelligence committees which was very damaging, both to the CIA and to the FBI, on failures where we not only knew the names, we knew the people. We knew they had been involved in attacking an American ship, the American embassy. We knew they were part of al Qaeda and the CIA knew they had come to America, these two hijackers, and didn't even inform the FBI. That was very damning information, which has never been satisfactorily explained by the FBI or the CIA and there's been no accountability for those failures where we knew names and we knew who those persons were specifically and that they were part of al Qaeda and, it turned out, they were part of the attack on the World Trade Center.
O'BRIEN: You've long been highly critical of George Tenet.
Do you think he should be fired?
LEVIN: I think after all the evidence is in, that judgment should be made. But I think these failures have been massive and they have -- there's been no accountability and there's been no concern on his part. It's amazing to me the lack of concern about these failures. Without that concern, we're not going to make the essential changes to make this country safer by having better intelligence.
O'BRIEN: Senator Carl Levin joining us this morning.
Nice to see you, sir.
Thanks for being with us.
LEVIN: Thanks, Soledad.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 25, 2004 - 07:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The nation's top security chiefs have painted a very stark picture of the continuing threats to U.S. interests. Before the Senate Intelligence Committee yesterday, FBI Director Robert Mueller characterized America's enemies as "determined, resilient and patient" and CIA Director George Tenet said there are strong indications that al Qaeda will revisit missed targets until they succeed. He also said that a list of missed targets now includes the White House and the Capitol.
Republican Senator Chuck Hagel is a member of the Intelligence Committee.
He joins us this morning from Capitol Hill.
Nice to see you, sir.
Thanks for being with us.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Thank you.
Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Let's start by listening to a little bit of what Director Tenet had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: On aircraft plots alone, we have uncovered new plans to recruit pilots and to evade new security measures in Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Europe. Even catastrophic attacks on the scale of 9/11 remain within al Qaeda's reach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Catastrophic attacks on the scale of 9/11 remain within al Qaeda's reach. On one hand, you have this catastrophic warning. On the other, though, we now know how faulty U.S. intelligence can be.
How confident do you think we should be in these new warnings?
HAGEL: Well, I think as the director noted, and I think most Americans understand, this is a very unpredictable business. There are no certainties in it. We live at a very dangerous time in history. And I believe that the way to face this is be prepared. And that's what this country has been doing over the last two years since September 11, 2001. Also, we have to recognize that we are a very vulnerable, open society, the most vulnerable, open, transparent society in the history of man. So we have to adjust to that to keep some assuredness of the liberties and the freedoms that we have as Americans, but at the same time guard the interests, the security interests of this country.
We're doing that. I think we've made significant progress over the last two years in our intelligence network capabilities, capacities, relationships, interconnects. We have more to do, as the director of both the CIA and the FBI noted yesterday.
O'BRIEN: But at the same time, we have heard previously that al Qaeda has been nearly destroyed completely or mostly dismantled in some phrases. George Tenet reiterated that yesterday, but at the same time his new warnings almost seemed to go against those earlier statements.
HAGEL: Well, he also said, Soledad, that it isn't just al Qaeda that we're dealing with. There are variations of al Qaeda. There are other radical fundamentalist groups across the globe, cells everywhere, including the United States. Most of this is primarily focused in the Middle East. But it isn't just al Qaeda. We're dealing with many variations of terrorism and terrorist groups, and that's what he was warning about, as well.
I do think we've made significant progress against al Qaeda.
O'BRIEN: Here's what Tenet had to say about one of -- what turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers.
Let's listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENET: In 1999, the Germans gave us a name, Marwan. That's it. And a phone number. And we didn't sit on our hands. And I'm not going to go through the rest of it in open session. They didn't give us a first and a last name until after 9/11.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Do you think the information was followed up on?
HAGEL: Oh, I am sure it was followed up on. We get literally thousands and thousands of those tips daily. That was a significant tip. But in some fairness here -- and I think we have to keep this in perspective -- our intelligence agencies are inundated with an absolutely incredible avalanche of this kind of tip off record process.
Now, what they have to do is do a better job of processing that and working through getting to the core issues or the important issues so that they can then pass that on in a very real time way to the policy makers, the law enforcement people, our people around the world.
But in this particular case, what I know of it, Soledad, I think that the CIA did follow up appropriately and responsibly.
O'BRIEN: Senator Chuck Hagel joining us this morning.
Nice to see you, Senator.
Thanks for being with us.
HAGEL: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Now we take you across the political aisle now for some Democratic reaction to yesterday's hearing.
Also joining us from Capitol Hill is Democratic Senator Carl Levin of Michigan.
Nice to see you, sir.
Thank you very much for being with us.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: You heard not only from George Tenet, but also from FBI Director Mueller.
The director, Mueller, had the same things to say about the success in dismantling al Qaeda while there is still much to do.
Let's listen to a little bit of what Director Mueller had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: Al Qaeda's flexibility and adaptability continue to make them dangerous and unpredictable. The enemy still has the capability to strike in the United States and to strike United States' citizens abroad with little or no warning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: So then to what degree has al Qaeda been dismantled or diminished?
LEVIN: Well, they seem to be saying that it has not been dismantled and that there's great risk still. And I think we ought to take that as a very serious warning. But what it reinforces in my mind is the need that we have allies in the war against terrorism. We cannot win this war alone. We cannot act as unilaterally as we have. We cannot act as though the security of the rest of the world is of no concern to us, only our own security.
We've been much too go it alone in our approach to the world and we've turned around world opinion so it now is against us. It was very much with us after 9/11.
If we're going to win the war against al Qaeda, which was vividly described yesterday by our witnesses, we are going to have to have people around the world who are going to share information with us and intelligence with us, because we can't win this without their support and without allies.
O'BRIEN: Speaking of intelligence, there's information from German intelligence that they gave the first name and the phone number of one of the hijackers of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
George Tenet started talking about it and then he said I'm not going to discuss this in open session.
How damaging do you think this new information is and do you think they'll ever be a time when the American public will know exactly what was known?
LEVIN: Yes, as far as I know, we knew nothing more than that first name. But there is other situations which were part of the report of our joint investigation by the two intelligence committees which was very damaging, both to the CIA and to the FBI, on failures where we not only knew the names, we knew the people. We knew they had been involved in attacking an American ship, the American embassy. We knew they were part of al Qaeda and the CIA knew they had come to America, these two hijackers, and didn't even inform the FBI. That was very damning information, which has never been satisfactorily explained by the FBI or the CIA and there's been no accountability for those failures where we knew names and we knew who those persons were specifically and that they were part of al Qaeda and, it turned out, they were part of the attack on the World Trade Center.
O'BRIEN: You've long been highly critical of George Tenet.
Do you think he should be fired?
LEVIN: I think after all the evidence is in, that judgment should be made. But I think these failures have been massive and they have -- there's been no accountability and there's been no concern on his part. It's amazing to me the lack of concern about these failures. Without that concern, we're not going to make the essential changes to make this country safer by having better intelligence.
O'BRIEN: Senator Carl Levin joining us this morning.
Nice to see you, sir.
Thanks for being with us.
LEVIN: Thanks, Soledad.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
