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American Morning
Difficulties Facing U.S. in Iraq; Interview With Sen. John McCain
Aired April 21, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
The spring weather bringing furious storms in the Midwest. Tornadoes blasting a line across Illinois and then Indiana.
Breaking news from Saudi Arabia -- a powerful explosion rocks the capital city of Riyadh. Details from there are still coming in at this hour.
In Basra, Iraq, the height of rush hour -- a string of car bombs exploding across the city. The death toll there is staggering.
In Fallujah, the cease-fire -- is it now in tatters? U.S. Marines fight it out with insurgents.
All these stories straight ahead this hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody.
Other stories that we're following in addition to all that this morning, our interview with Senator John McCain is coming up. He's talking about some of the unnerving developments in Iraq, with the hostages being taken all across the country there. We're going to get into the political challenges to this June 30 handover.
HEMMER: Also looking at what coalition forces are doing right now in Iraq, the Marines in specific. That cease-fire broken in Fallujah, clearly, from the videotape we're watching already today.
Also, suicide bombers across the country, especially today in Basra.
General David Grange back with us in a moment. His thoughts on what's happening today. We'll get to him in a moment here.
O'BRIEN: Well, also talking about the military is Jack Cafferty.
It's the Question of the Day, in fact.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, it is.
That shot of that kid with the blood on his shoulder... HEMMER: Yes, I've seen that.
O'BRIEN: Oh.
CAFFERTY: ... firing that weapon from behind, I mean...
HEMMER: And he went down and got back up and went down and got back up again.
CAFFERTY: He got back up. I mean nobody's going to beat those kids ever, anyplace. They're the best the world's ever seen, those Marines.
HEMMER: Amen.
CAFFERTY: Coming up in the Cafferty File, Wednesday, stuff people say, including a woman who claims to be covered in loser dust. She's not just covered in it, she's buried in the stuff. And actress Uma Thurman, who destroyed David Letterman's Oscar career, has nothing to say about nothing. We'll explain.
HEMMER: She was great in "Kill Bill," by the way, the second version.
CAFFERTY: I haven't seen that.
O'BRIEN: Bill Hemmer saw it. He did.
CAFFERTY: Is that -- is it as good as "Whale Rider?"
HEMMER: Kill Bill Hemmer.
CAFFERTY: I'm just wondering how did you like that?
O'BRIEN: Touche, Mr. Cafferty. I thought that was funny, yes.
All right, let's get right to our top story.
We and start with a serious story that we have been reporting all morning, an explosion taking place in the Saudi capital of Riyadh. Word of that coming less than half an hour ago. The explosion went off in an area near the Saudi information ministry. Saudi authorities apparently had information on six bomb. They were able to defuse five of them. The sixth did go off, however.
So far, though, no reports of any casualties.
Here in the U.S., Congress is taking another look at plans for the power transition in Iraq. Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz will continue their discussion with law makers today. We're going to bring you a live update from Capitol Hill coming up in our next half hour.
Israeli nuclear whistleblower Mordecai Vanunu has been released from prison. Vanunu walked out just hours ago. He had served nearly 18 years on charges of treason and espionage for leaking details of Israel's nuclear program to a London newspaper. Vanunu says he is proud of what he did and calls his imprisonment "cruel and barbaric."
And an aboriginal woman wearing animal skins and traditional tribal makeup has apparently put a curse on Australia's prime minister, John Howard. The woman cast the curse by pointing a small bone at Howard. She says she's angry that Howard plans to get rid of a commission that's supposed to improve the lives of aborigines. Howard says the program isn't working, as the aborigines are still the poorest and the sickest and the least educated group of people in Australia.
HEMMER: About 8:03 here in New York now.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: Back to Iraq again, as we start another hour here.
The U.S. top administrator there, Paul Bremer, says that attacks like those today in Basra will not go away when sovereignty is returned to Iraq this summer. Sixty-eight are dead, all Iraqis, killed today by five car bombs outside police stations and a training facility. Most of the dead are civilians, including at least 20 schoolchildren.
This is the scene in Fallujah. U.S. Marines exchanging gunfire with Iraqi insurgents. Three Marines were wounded. We're told at least 17 insurgent fighters were killed in separate battles there, the northwestern section of that town of Fallujah, population about 300,000, in the Sunni Triangle.
CNN military analyst Retired General David Grange back with us in Oak Brick, Illinois, to talk about all this -- good morning, General.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Good morning.
HEMMER: Is there any such thing as a cease-fire now in Fallujah after watching this videotape today?
GRANGE: Well, the problem with the cease-fire is that the elders, the civic leaders of Fallujah want the cease-fire, but the insurgents do not. I don't think they ever did want it. They're not going to turn in their weapons. If they do, it'll be a cursory turn in. They'll still maintain cache sites of weapons to continue the fight.
I think this is a situation where you just need to hit hard and get it over with, with overwhelming force.
HEMMER: Who are these insurgents, General? And do we know how many there are there?
GRANGE: I don't know how many. They're made up of, I think, ex- Fedayeen, maybe some ex-military, some foreign fighters and maybe it's just some, the locals with some nationalistic fever that have joined this move of the insurgents because they have nothing else to do. When there was a gap, I think, between giving people some kind of jobs, some -- working for the state in some capacity instead of just hanging out, they were just primed to be recruited to some already hard core cells that were underground.
But these are people that don't want a change in Iraq, that want to control the people and they're going to fight till they're dead. And that's probably what's going to happen.
HEMMER: If we can move from Fallujah, the other headline today is what's happening in Basra. We're saying at least 68 are dead now, a series of explosions there. I mentioned at least 20 schoolchildren killed, as well.
I'm not quite sure what you make of these pictures in Basra. But what does it say about the state of security in Iraq today when Basra has been largely quiet and peaceful, when you compare it with sections of the Sunni Triangle?
GRANGE: Well, I think this is a surge, an ongoing surge of different factions, again, that don't want change. And it may not just be in Iraq itself. There may be some outside influence, which I think this is the case in Basra, that don't want this transition to happen in Iraq because it influences other countries in the region, the way of life that's there right now. And so either this was a very poorly done terrorist attack, a series of attacks, or they didn't care who they were going to kill.
And so this particular assault on Iraqi civilians will turn the civilians against whoever they think did the acts.
HEMMER: Well, if I could move to troop involvement now. Jack's asking the question about Senator Chuck Hagel's comments yesterday, just throwing out the possibility of reinstating a draft.
If you put that argument along with the issue of Spain, Honduras and the Dominican Republic, what is your feeling right now about troop involvement there for the U.S. and what the Pentagon needs to do in terms of contingency plans, possibly, for this summer?
GRANGE: Well, it's obvious that part of the strategy of the insurgents -- and it's a good strategy -- is to break the alliance of, with the United States and the rest of the coalition. They attack that seam, they make it a crack and they hope the crack widens. And several countries already have joined that pullout by not showing resolve to complete the mission.
So everything has to be done, which I think the secretary of state and others are doing, to make sure that other countries hang in there and complete this thing. It's going to be some more commitment of troops, I believe. It should be, if needed, just -- this is the priority effort. This is the priority effort of conflict abroad right now for the United States of America and the mission has to be accomplished.
So if it requires more, fine.
In reference to the draft, I don't really think we need a draft. But I do believe in some type of national service. But it has to be one that gets the type of troop that Jack talked about earlier, that shows that kind of competence, like that Marine that was wounded fighting, just like all the soldiers, the Marines and others over there do. It's the best in the world. You want to maintain that no matter what course of action you take.
HEMMER: Wounded and still fighting. You see it from the videotape to the right of the screen there, the gentleman there, that U.S. Marine with the blood on the left side of his uniform that Jack was talking about, and so, too, with General Grange.
Thank you, David.
GRANGE: Thank you.
HEMMER: Good to see you there in Oak Brook, Illinois.
Here's Soledad now with more.
O'BRIEN: And those are pretty amazing pictures, aren't they?
Well, Senator John McCain has a new book out. It's got a telling title. It's called "Why Courage Matters," and they are words to live by for the Arizona senator, who has displayed, clearly, so much of it in his personal and his political life.
Just recently we sat down and talked about his book, politics and also the uncertain situation in Iraq.
But I began by asking him about his wife Cindy, who is now recovering from a minor stroke.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA, AUTHOR, "WHY COURAGE MATTERS": She's fine. She's home and she's very well and we thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers on her behalf.
O'BRIEN: And her prognosis is good?
MCCAIN: It's excellent. Excellent.
O'BRIEN: Wonderful. Good.
MCCAIN: Full recovery.
O'BRIEN: We are certainly glad to hear that.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: I want to talk a little bit of politics with you. Let's first start talking about hostages. Terry Anderson said yesterday that when he sees the pictures of the hostages being held in Iraq on television, that it's personally very painful to him, because it brings him right back to his moment when he was a hostage.
Do you feel the same way, considering your personal experience, as well? MCCAIN: I do not.
O'BRIEN: Really?
MCCAIN: Mine was so long ago and far away and I've put most of that behind me. I do, of course, like all Americans, extend our deep sympathy to the individuals who are held and their families. And we are committed to getting them free as soon as possible. But it -- I don't have that kind of instant -- I think more about the families. I know it's very tough on them, as well as the individual.
O'BRIEN: U.S. policy is to not negotiate for the release of the hostages.
Do you think there should ever be an exception to that? Could you see a time when there would be an exception to that?
MCCAIN: It would be hard to, unless there was some overwhelming reason that I can't imagine, because of the obvious answer why we don't, is because if you start doing that, it makes it very attractive to kidnap Americans all over the world.
O'BRIEN: In the coalition, Spain now out; Honduras now out. Is -- some people might read that as the coalition is crumbling.
Do you think that's a fair assessment?
MCCAIN: No, but I don't think, in the interests of straight talk, I don't think the coalition is in the greatest condition, obviously. And this is a very difficult and maybe a seminal period in the whole conflict and our attempts to install democracy in Iraq. And we've got to succeed. We can't fail. But we should have had more troops there earlier on. Most military experts agree with that. And I came back last August and said we've got to have more boots on the ground over there.
The British in Northern Ireland had many, many more troops per person in a very difficult situation.
But having said that, now we have to obviously stick to the June 30 date, turn the government over to the Iraqis as quickly as possible, welcome the involvement of the United Nations and get this thing done.
O'BRIEN: Have you read Bob Woodward's new book?
MCCAIN: I read excerpts.
O'BRIEN: A big question, of course, did the president divert money that was meant to be spent in Afghanistan to run up for the war in Iraq without the knowledge of Congress.
Do you think that there should be more investigation of this issue?
MCCAIN: Oh, I think we should look into it, but I would point out in 1998 we passed a regime change resolution. We did authorize the president to go into Iraq. There was a vote in the Senate, 87 to -- I've forgotten, but it was an overwhelming vote in the Senate.
But we should keep track of the money, perhaps, more carefully than we have been doing.
O'BRIEN: I want to ask you about your book.
MCCAIN: Sure.
O'BRIEN: You've written it with Mark Salter...
MCCAIN: Sure.
O'BRIEN: ... who you've written previous books with, as well.
MCCAIN: Yes, two previous books.
O'BRIEN: Over a 15 year relationship. And it's called "Why Courage Matters."
So answer that question for me, what does it matter?
MCCAIN: It matters in our lives. It matters as far as our country is concerned. It matters particularly in our daily lives when we confront fear, that we recognize that fear isn't a, something we can't overcome. Fear is an opportunity for courage. And we talk about people who have displayed extraordinary courage.
O'BRIEN: You say outrage is often the first step toward a courageous act.
MCCAIN: Yes, you know, there's a difference between anger and outrage. Anger, it's when it passes. Outrage, when we are outraged when we see an injustice, when we see a child abused, when we see an elderly person deprived of the things that human beings and our citizens deserve, when we see people deprived of their freedom unjustly, that's outrage. And that sustains us through very difficult times.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Senator McCain talking to us earlier.
Once again, he squelched rumors that he would consider joining Senator John Kerry's ticket as a vice presidential candidate, despite their very close friendship.
HEMMER: Deny, deny, deny that.
O'BRIEN: He said, you know, he should wear a T-shirt that says, "What About No Don't You Understand?" He said ouch, wow. But he said it in a nice way.
HEMMER: Yes, that's right.
Let's get a break here.
In a moment, back to Illinois -- picking up the pieces this morning. The sun coming up there now. Deadly twisters carving out a path of destruction. They believe some people are still trapped. Live to the scene for an update on what's happening there.
O'BRIEN: And Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry seeks to answer those questions about his war record. We've got the very latest on that just ahead.
HEMMER: Also, the defense resting yet again. The Jayson Williams manslaughter trial, coming up straight ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: The community of Utica, Illinois, about 90 miles southwest of Chicago, is just beginning to deal with a virtually direct hit from a powerful series of storms. The tornadoes that were spawned from those storms killed at least three people.
Lisa Leiter is in Utica for us this morning -- Lisa, good morning.
What's the latest on the search and rescue going on right now?
LISA LEITER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.
Well, the latest is we just heard a short while ago from the sheriff here. And you're looking right now at live pictures of the three story building where four to five people are still trapped inside beneath the rubble.
As you said, three people have been confirmed dead and the sheriff telling us at this point he does not know how many more people, but they believe four to five more people still trapped inside. It's been several hours since we heard from those people. Rescue workers early on in the recovery effort did make contact with the people trapped in the basement of the building where the Milestone Tavern is. And earlier this morning, LaSalle County Sheriff Tom Templeton talked about the recovery effort.
And here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF TOM TEMPLETON, LASALLE COUNTY, ILLINOIS: The search and rescue effort is still going on, as you can see behind us. The cranes are in working, along with some other heavy equipment, trying to lift off the sections of floors that collapsed in this three story building. So until they get down to possibly the first floor or the basement level, we may not be able to locate anyone else. And there's still the hope that we're going to locate people that are alive somewhere in the structure.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEITER: And the homes on this block where I'm standing were severely damaged. This whole area has been evacuated and about 30 to 35 people have been taken to local shelters. The Red Cross is already starting putting people up at local hotels in the area, giving them food and clothing and what they need to get through this time -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right, some good news from there, at least.
Lisa Leiter for us this morning.
Lisa, thanks -- Bill.
HEMMER: We will not leave that story for long this morning.
Also, closing arguments expected tomorrow in the manslaughter trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams. The case could go to the jury by week's end. And before resting yesterday, for a second time, the defense scored a victory with a key ruling from the judge.
Attorney Brian Neary defended Jayson Williams on a gun charge 10 years ago.
He's here to talk about the latest developments in this case, back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Good morning, Brian.
BRIAN NEARY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: They rest again, do they?
How big of a victory was it for the defense yesterday to have certain evidence thrown out?
NEARY: Well, I think that the defense has scored big, so to speak, with regard to the experts. We're going to have two experts from both sides who have now said the gun is a good gun and the gun didn't work. But now, the defense experts got to go back in and say something that the jury really hadn't known before about this so- called secret or test done by the Browning expert who was helping the prosecutor, that this inspection could have really damaged their -- the defense inspections of these guns. Therefore, you know, what the jury saw may be not what everybody else saw.
HEMMER: Well, back up just a little bit.
What was wrong with the evidence in the first place? Why did the judge disallow it?
NEARY: Well, he threw out part of the sergeant from the state police's testimony. He threw it out on a legal theory that if somebody is going to testify to scientific evidence, it has to be done in an objective kind of a standard kind of way.
Sergeant Ryan admitted that he couldn't do it in a standardized way. It had to do with the pull of the trigger. And he couldn't make objective the pull. The pull was different each time he did it. The judge said therefore if you can't quantify the pull, we're not going to allow you to consider by pulling it and jerking the gun up.
So in essence part of the, this, the strong part of the state's case being near the trigger, that part of the test is out.
HEMMER: How much does that cut into the prosecution's case? And if that's going to be thrown out, on what do they rely at this point?
NEARY: It cuts into the prosecutor's case because they have to suggest that this -- the gun going off was not an accident. It had to be something that was reckless. By that part of the prosecutor's examination, the state trooper's examination going out, leaves now really open the question -- could this really have been an accident? Couple that with the so-called secret examination and now part of the very methodology, the tests used by the state trooper to disprove the theory of accident, that hurts the prosecution.
HEMMER: Now, listen, do you think, as a defense attorney, first of all, do you think this raises reasonable doubt right now?
NEARY: Sure it does.
HEMMER: You believe so?
NEARY: When the answers are not clear, that is the common sense application of the theory of reasonable doubt. You have now, by the testimony of the last two days, the issue about how the gun went off became more and more muddled. It can't be scientifically proven. It now seemed that somebody might have put their hand on the -- finger on the shaft, so to speak, so that the state's -- what could have been a strong theory now, really, has become muddled.
HEMMER: The bottom line is we're coming down to the close in this trial.
Can you believe it?
NEARY: It's a long time.
HEMMER: The jury is actually going to get to deliberate some time soon, maybe Friday.
So, Brian, thanks.
We'll be live there a bit later this morning here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Good to see you again.
NEARY: Thanks, Bill.
HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, a car bombing in Saudi Arabia may be the work of a suicide bomber.
And John Kerry has an answer for all those who are questioning his military record. The latest on that ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: This is new videotape into us here at AMERICAN MORNING out of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. This is the explosion we first talked about about an hour and 15 minutes ago. The details we have on this, the Associated Press is saying at least two are dead now. CNN has not confirmed that independently. But what we have confirmed is at least six explosions were set to go off. Saudi police got to five of them, defused five of them, but they did not get to the sixth one and as a result, you're seeing the devastation there in the streets of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Still working that story out of the Saudi kingdom.
More when we get it here.
But the bottom line is they may have gotten, despite the damage in this videotape, Soledad and Jack, they may have gotten extremely lucky in Saudi Arabia today.
O'BRIEN: The damage does look so extensive that you can hardly believe accounts of only two people killed when you see that building, which is completely shredded. And then, of course, obviously, it's gone into residential areas, as well. So maybe there was enough time to get people out of that area. People got some help in there right.
Well, we're going to, of course, continue to follow this story and lots of details still need to be filled in. So we'll continue to work on that -- Jack Cafferty.
CAFFERTY: It's a great part of the world, isn't it? Unbelievable.
O'BRIEN: Ooh, what a mess.
CAFFERTY: Violence escalating in Iraq. Senator Chuck Hagel suggesting yesterday the U.S. may be forced to reinstate the draft. He's a Republican and he says that everybody should "carry some burden." He says it's always the middle class and lower middle class who are on the front lines in war and not "the sons and daughters of the wealthy and the powerful."
So that's the question, do you agree with Senator Hagel that we should bring back the draft in this country?
And a lot of opinions.
Bob in Temple, Texas: "Senator Hagel knows full well that the vast majority of all draftees who fought and died in Vietnam, Korea and WWII were lower middle class and poor boys. He's being totally dishonest in his statement about equal fair sharing of combat burdens."
Dave in Menominee, Michigan: "I think the draft should be reinstated. If there are sons and daughters of the policymakers in the military, there'll be a little more thinking before we foolishly send them to die in a war."
Shawn, who's a staff sergeant in the Air Force, writes this: "How can anyone in the government be talking about starting a draft when the Air Force is in the middle of cutting its force by nearly 16,000 troops? I've been in the Air Force seven years, had planned to make it a career. Because of the force reduction, I'll be getting out next year."
And Ed in Lowell, Massachusetts: "Jack, I'm of the age where the draft was just one of those rites of passage on the road to adulthood. I think it'd be of great benefit to our entitled, self-absorbed youth to have to face a nasty drill instructor at 05:00 hours."
Been there, done that, it's awful.
HEMMER: Drop and give me 50.
CAFFERTY: Yes. Oh, boy. San Antonio, Texas, Lackland Air Force Base.
HEMMER: Oh, is that right?
CAFFERTY: Oh, yes.
O'BRIEN: Is it 05:00 hours you have to get up and do that?
CAFFERTY: It was in the middle of the night. It's kind of like this guy.
HEMMER: Oh dark 30.
CAFFERTY: You just don't have to do pushups here.
HEMMER: I like this kid.
CAFFERTY: That's the only difference.
O'BRIEN: We could make you do pushups if you want.
CAFFERTY: And the management is moderately kinder than the D.I.s. Not a lot, just, but a little.
HEMMER: Yes. Fond memories from this man over here.
O'BRIEN: Clearly.
HEMMER: Let's hit a break here.
In a moment, more on the Iraqi transition plans there. Some of the Pentagon's top officials heading to Capitol Hill yet again today and they can expect some tough questions. Back in a moment on what may be asked a bit later today, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 21, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
The spring weather bringing furious storms in the Midwest. Tornadoes blasting a line across Illinois and then Indiana.
Breaking news from Saudi Arabia -- a powerful explosion rocks the capital city of Riyadh. Details from there are still coming in at this hour.
In Basra, Iraq, the height of rush hour -- a string of car bombs exploding across the city. The death toll there is staggering.
In Fallujah, the cease-fire -- is it now in tatters? U.S. Marines fight it out with insurgents.
All these stories straight ahead this hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody.
Other stories that we're following in addition to all that this morning, our interview with Senator John McCain is coming up. He's talking about some of the unnerving developments in Iraq, with the hostages being taken all across the country there. We're going to get into the political challenges to this June 30 handover.
HEMMER: Also looking at what coalition forces are doing right now in Iraq, the Marines in specific. That cease-fire broken in Fallujah, clearly, from the videotape we're watching already today.
Also, suicide bombers across the country, especially today in Basra.
General David Grange back with us in a moment. His thoughts on what's happening today. We'll get to him in a moment here.
O'BRIEN: Well, also talking about the military is Jack Cafferty.
It's the Question of the Day, in fact.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, it is.
That shot of that kid with the blood on his shoulder... HEMMER: Yes, I've seen that.
O'BRIEN: Oh.
CAFFERTY: ... firing that weapon from behind, I mean...
HEMMER: And he went down and got back up and went down and got back up again.
CAFFERTY: He got back up. I mean nobody's going to beat those kids ever, anyplace. They're the best the world's ever seen, those Marines.
HEMMER: Amen.
CAFFERTY: Coming up in the Cafferty File, Wednesday, stuff people say, including a woman who claims to be covered in loser dust. She's not just covered in it, she's buried in the stuff. And actress Uma Thurman, who destroyed David Letterman's Oscar career, has nothing to say about nothing. We'll explain.
HEMMER: She was great in "Kill Bill," by the way, the second version.
CAFFERTY: I haven't seen that.
O'BRIEN: Bill Hemmer saw it. He did.
CAFFERTY: Is that -- is it as good as "Whale Rider?"
HEMMER: Kill Bill Hemmer.
CAFFERTY: I'm just wondering how did you like that?
O'BRIEN: Touche, Mr. Cafferty. I thought that was funny, yes.
All right, let's get right to our top story.
We and start with a serious story that we have been reporting all morning, an explosion taking place in the Saudi capital of Riyadh. Word of that coming less than half an hour ago. The explosion went off in an area near the Saudi information ministry. Saudi authorities apparently had information on six bomb. They were able to defuse five of them. The sixth did go off, however.
So far, though, no reports of any casualties.
Here in the U.S., Congress is taking another look at plans for the power transition in Iraq. Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz will continue their discussion with law makers today. We're going to bring you a live update from Capitol Hill coming up in our next half hour.
Israeli nuclear whistleblower Mordecai Vanunu has been released from prison. Vanunu walked out just hours ago. He had served nearly 18 years on charges of treason and espionage for leaking details of Israel's nuclear program to a London newspaper. Vanunu says he is proud of what he did and calls his imprisonment "cruel and barbaric."
And an aboriginal woman wearing animal skins and traditional tribal makeup has apparently put a curse on Australia's prime minister, John Howard. The woman cast the curse by pointing a small bone at Howard. She says she's angry that Howard plans to get rid of a commission that's supposed to improve the lives of aborigines. Howard says the program isn't working, as the aborigines are still the poorest and the sickest and the least educated group of people in Australia.
HEMMER: About 8:03 here in New York now.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: Back to Iraq again, as we start another hour here.
The U.S. top administrator there, Paul Bremer, says that attacks like those today in Basra will not go away when sovereignty is returned to Iraq this summer. Sixty-eight are dead, all Iraqis, killed today by five car bombs outside police stations and a training facility. Most of the dead are civilians, including at least 20 schoolchildren.
This is the scene in Fallujah. U.S. Marines exchanging gunfire with Iraqi insurgents. Three Marines were wounded. We're told at least 17 insurgent fighters were killed in separate battles there, the northwestern section of that town of Fallujah, population about 300,000, in the Sunni Triangle.
CNN military analyst Retired General David Grange back with us in Oak Brick, Illinois, to talk about all this -- good morning, General.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Good morning.
HEMMER: Is there any such thing as a cease-fire now in Fallujah after watching this videotape today?
GRANGE: Well, the problem with the cease-fire is that the elders, the civic leaders of Fallujah want the cease-fire, but the insurgents do not. I don't think they ever did want it. They're not going to turn in their weapons. If they do, it'll be a cursory turn in. They'll still maintain cache sites of weapons to continue the fight.
I think this is a situation where you just need to hit hard and get it over with, with overwhelming force.
HEMMER: Who are these insurgents, General? And do we know how many there are there?
GRANGE: I don't know how many. They're made up of, I think, ex- Fedayeen, maybe some ex-military, some foreign fighters and maybe it's just some, the locals with some nationalistic fever that have joined this move of the insurgents because they have nothing else to do. When there was a gap, I think, between giving people some kind of jobs, some -- working for the state in some capacity instead of just hanging out, they were just primed to be recruited to some already hard core cells that were underground.
But these are people that don't want a change in Iraq, that want to control the people and they're going to fight till they're dead. And that's probably what's going to happen.
HEMMER: If we can move from Fallujah, the other headline today is what's happening in Basra. We're saying at least 68 are dead now, a series of explosions there. I mentioned at least 20 schoolchildren killed, as well.
I'm not quite sure what you make of these pictures in Basra. But what does it say about the state of security in Iraq today when Basra has been largely quiet and peaceful, when you compare it with sections of the Sunni Triangle?
GRANGE: Well, I think this is a surge, an ongoing surge of different factions, again, that don't want change. And it may not just be in Iraq itself. There may be some outside influence, which I think this is the case in Basra, that don't want this transition to happen in Iraq because it influences other countries in the region, the way of life that's there right now. And so either this was a very poorly done terrorist attack, a series of attacks, or they didn't care who they were going to kill.
And so this particular assault on Iraqi civilians will turn the civilians against whoever they think did the acts.
HEMMER: Well, if I could move to troop involvement now. Jack's asking the question about Senator Chuck Hagel's comments yesterday, just throwing out the possibility of reinstating a draft.
If you put that argument along with the issue of Spain, Honduras and the Dominican Republic, what is your feeling right now about troop involvement there for the U.S. and what the Pentagon needs to do in terms of contingency plans, possibly, for this summer?
GRANGE: Well, it's obvious that part of the strategy of the insurgents -- and it's a good strategy -- is to break the alliance of, with the United States and the rest of the coalition. They attack that seam, they make it a crack and they hope the crack widens. And several countries already have joined that pullout by not showing resolve to complete the mission.
So everything has to be done, which I think the secretary of state and others are doing, to make sure that other countries hang in there and complete this thing. It's going to be some more commitment of troops, I believe. It should be, if needed, just -- this is the priority effort. This is the priority effort of conflict abroad right now for the United States of America and the mission has to be accomplished.
So if it requires more, fine.
In reference to the draft, I don't really think we need a draft. But I do believe in some type of national service. But it has to be one that gets the type of troop that Jack talked about earlier, that shows that kind of competence, like that Marine that was wounded fighting, just like all the soldiers, the Marines and others over there do. It's the best in the world. You want to maintain that no matter what course of action you take.
HEMMER: Wounded and still fighting. You see it from the videotape to the right of the screen there, the gentleman there, that U.S. Marine with the blood on the left side of his uniform that Jack was talking about, and so, too, with General Grange.
Thank you, David.
GRANGE: Thank you.
HEMMER: Good to see you there in Oak Brook, Illinois.
Here's Soledad now with more.
O'BRIEN: And those are pretty amazing pictures, aren't they?
Well, Senator John McCain has a new book out. It's got a telling title. It's called "Why Courage Matters," and they are words to live by for the Arizona senator, who has displayed, clearly, so much of it in his personal and his political life.
Just recently we sat down and talked about his book, politics and also the uncertain situation in Iraq.
But I began by asking him about his wife Cindy, who is now recovering from a minor stroke.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA, AUTHOR, "WHY COURAGE MATTERS": She's fine. She's home and she's very well and we thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers on her behalf.
O'BRIEN: And her prognosis is good?
MCCAIN: It's excellent. Excellent.
O'BRIEN: Wonderful. Good.
MCCAIN: Full recovery.
O'BRIEN: We are certainly glad to hear that.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: I want to talk a little bit of politics with you. Let's first start talking about hostages. Terry Anderson said yesterday that when he sees the pictures of the hostages being held in Iraq on television, that it's personally very painful to him, because it brings him right back to his moment when he was a hostage.
Do you feel the same way, considering your personal experience, as well? MCCAIN: I do not.
O'BRIEN: Really?
MCCAIN: Mine was so long ago and far away and I've put most of that behind me. I do, of course, like all Americans, extend our deep sympathy to the individuals who are held and their families. And we are committed to getting them free as soon as possible. But it -- I don't have that kind of instant -- I think more about the families. I know it's very tough on them, as well as the individual.
O'BRIEN: U.S. policy is to not negotiate for the release of the hostages.
Do you think there should ever be an exception to that? Could you see a time when there would be an exception to that?
MCCAIN: It would be hard to, unless there was some overwhelming reason that I can't imagine, because of the obvious answer why we don't, is because if you start doing that, it makes it very attractive to kidnap Americans all over the world.
O'BRIEN: In the coalition, Spain now out; Honduras now out. Is -- some people might read that as the coalition is crumbling.
Do you think that's a fair assessment?
MCCAIN: No, but I don't think, in the interests of straight talk, I don't think the coalition is in the greatest condition, obviously. And this is a very difficult and maybe a seminal period in the whole conflict and our attempts to install democracy in Iraq. And we've got to succeed. We can't fail. But we should have had more troops there earlier on. Most military experts agree with that. And I came back last August and said we've got to have more boots on the ground over there.
The British in Northern Ireland had many, many more troops per person in a very difficult situation.
But having said that, now we have to obviously stick to the June 30 date, turn the government over to the Iraqis as quickly as possible, welcome the involvement of the United Nations and get this thing done.
O'BRIEN: Have you read Bob Woodward's new book?
MCCAIN: I read excerpts.
O'BRIEN: A big question, of course, did the president divert money that was meant to be spent in Afghanistan to run up for the war in Iraq without the knowledge of Congress.
Do you think that there should be more investigation of this issue?
MCCAIN: Oh, I think we should look into it, but I would point out in 1998 we passed a regime change resolution. We did authorize the president to go into Iraq. There was a vote in the Senate, 87 to -- I've forgotten, but it was an overwhelming vote in the Senate.
But we should keep track of the money, perhaps, more carefully than we have been doing.
O'BRIEN: I want to ask you about your book.
MCCAIN: Sure.
O'BRIEN: You've written it with Mark Salter...
MCCAIN: Sure.
O'BRIEN: ... who you've written previous books with, as well.
MCCAIN: Yes, two previous books.
O'BRIEN: Over a 15 year relationship. And it's called "Why Courage Matters."
So answer that question for me, what does it matter?
MCCAIN: It matters in our lives. It matters as far as our country is concerned. It matters particularly in our daily lives when we confront fear, that we recognize that fear isn't a, something we can't overcome. Fear is an opportunity for courage. And we talk about people who have displayed extraordinary courage.
O'BRIEN: You say outrage is often the first step toward a courageous act.
MCCAIN: Yes, you know, there's a difference between anger and outrage. Anger, it's when it passes. Outrage, when we are outraged when we see an injustice, when we see a child abused, when we see an elderly person deprived of the things that human beings and our citizens deserve, when we see people deprived of their freedom unjustly, that's outrage. And that sustains us through very difficult times.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Senator McCain talking to us earlier.
Once again, he squelched rumors that he would consider joining Senator John Kerry's ticket as a vice presidential candidate, despite their very close friendship.
HEMMER: Deny, deny, deny that.
O'BRIEN: He said, you know, he should wear a T-shirt that says, "What About No Don't You Understand?" He said ouch, wow. But he said it in a nice way.
HEMMER: Yes, that's right.
Let's get a break here.
In a moment, back to Illinois -- picking up the pieces this morning. The sun coming up there now. Deadly twisters carving out a path of destruction. They believe some people are still trapped. Live to the scene for an update on what's happening there.
O'BRIEN: And Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry seeks to answer those questions about his war record. We've got the very latest on that just ahead.
HEMMER: Also, the defense resting yet again. The Jayson Williams manslaughter trial, coming up straight ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: The community of Utica, Illinois, about 90 miles southwest of Chicago, is just beginning to deal with a virtually direct hit from a powerful series of storms. The tornadoes that were spawned from those storms killed at least three people.
Lisa Leiter is in Utica for us this morning -- Lisa, good morning.
What's the latest on the search and rescue going on right now?
LISA LEITER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.
Well, the latest is we just heard a short while ago from the sheriff here. And you're looking right now at live pictures of the three story building where four to five people are still trapped inside beneath the rubble.
As you said, three people have been confirmed dead and the sheriff telling us at this point he does not know how many more people, but they believe four to five more people still trapped inside. It's been several hours since we heard from those people. Rescue workers early on in the recovery effort did make contact with the people trapped in the basement of the building where the Milestone Tavern is. And earlier this morning, LaSalle County Sheriff Tom Templeton talked about the recovery effort.
And here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF TOM TEMPLETON, LASALLE COUNTY, ILLINOIS: The search and rescue effort is still going on, as you can see behind us. The cranes are in working, along with some other heavy equipment, trying to lift off the sections of floors that collapsed in this three story building. So until they get down to possibly the first floor or the basement level, we may not be able to locate anyone else. And there's still the hope that we're going to locate people that are alive somewhere in the structure.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEITER: And the homes on this block where I'm standing were severely damaged. This whole area has been evacuated and about 30 to 35 people have been taken to local shelters. The Red Cross is already starting putting people up at local hotels in the area, giving them food and clothing and what they need to get through this time -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right, some good news from there, at least.
Lisa Leiter for us this morning.
Lisa, thanks -- Bill.
HEMMER: We will not leave that story for long this morning.
Also, closing arguments expected tomorrow in the manslaughter trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams. The case could go to the jury by week's end. And before resting yesterday, for a second time, the defense scored a victory with a key ruling from the judge.
Attorney Brian Neary defended Jayson Williams on a gun charge 10 years ago.
He's here to talk about the latest developments in this case, back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Good morning, Brian.
BRIAN NEARY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: They rest again, do they?
How big of a victory was it for the defense yesterday to have certain evidence thrown out?
NEARY: Well, I think that the defense has scored big, so to speak, with regard to the experts. We're going to have two experts from both sides who have now said the gun is a good gun and the gun didn't work. But now, the defense experts got to go back in and say something that the jury really hadn't known before about this so- called secret or test done by the Browning expert who was helping the prosecutor, that this inspection could have really damaged their -- the defense inspections of these guns. Therefore, you know, what the jury saw may be not what everybody else saw.
HEMMER: Well, back up just a little bit.
What was wrong with the evidence in the first place? Why did the judge disallow it?
NEARY: Well, he threw out part of the sergeant from the state police's testimony. He threw it out on a legal theory that if somebody is going to testify to scientific evidence, it has to be done in an objective kind of a standard kind of way.
Sergeant Ryan admitted that he couldn't do it in a standardized way. It had to do with the pull of the trigger. And he couldn't make objective the pull. The pull was different each time he did it. The judge said therefore if you can't quantify the pull, we're not going to allow you to consider by pulling it and jerking the gun up.
So in essence part of the, this, the strong part of the state's case being near the trigger, that part of the test is out.
HEMMER: How much does that cut into the prosecution's case? And if that's going to be thrown out, on what do they rely at this point?
NEARY: It cuts into the prosecutor's case because they have to suggest that this -- the gun going off was not an accident. It had to be something that was reckless. By that part of the prosecutor's examination, the state trooper's examination going out, leaves now really open the question -- could this really have been an accident? Couple that with the so-called secret examination and now part of the very methodology, the tests used by the state trooper to disprove the theory of accident, that hurts the prosecution.
HEMMER: Now, listen, do you think, as a defense attorney, first of all, do you think this raises reasonable doubt right now?
NEARY: Sure it does.
HEMMER: You believe so?
NEARY: When the answers are not clear, that is the common sense application of the theory of reasonable doubt. You have now, by the testimony of the last two days, the issue about how the gun went off became more and more muddled. It can't be scientifically proven. It now seemed that somebody might have put their hand on the -- finger on the shaft, so to speak, so that the state's -- what could have been a strong theory now, really, has become muddled.
HEMMER: The bottom line is we're coming down to the close in this trial.
Can you believe it?
NEARY: It's a long time.
HEMMER: The jury is actually going to get to deliberate some time soon, maybe Friday.
So, Brian, thanks.
We'll be live there a bit later this morning here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Good to see you again.
NEARY: Thanks, Bill.
HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, a car bombing in Saudi Arabia may be the work of a suicide bomber.
And John Kerry has an answer for all those who are questioning his military record. The latest on that ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: This is new videotape into us here at AMERICAN MORNING out of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. This is the explosion we first talked about about an hour and 15 minutes ago. The details we have on this, the Associated Press is saying at least two are dead now. CNN has not confirmed that independently. But what we have confirmed is at least six explosions were set to go off. Saudi police got to five of them, defused five of them, but they did not get to the sixth one and as a result, you're seeing the devastation there in the streets of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Still working that story out of the Saudi kingdom.
More when we get it here.
But the bottom line is they may have gotten, despite the damage in this videotape, Soledad and Jack, they may have gotten extremely lucky in Saudi Arabia today.
O'BRIEN: The damage does look so extensive that you can hardly believe accounts of only two people killed when you see that building, which is completely shredded. And then, of course, obviously, it's gone into residential areas, as well. So maybe there was enough time to get people out of that area. People got some help in there right.
Well, we're going to, of course, continue to follow this story and lots of details still need to be filled in. So we'll continue to work on that -- Jack Cafferty.
CAFFERTY: It's a great part of the world, isn't it? Unbelievable.
O'BRIEN: Ooh, what a mess.
CAFFERTY: Violence escalating in Iraq. Senator Chuck Hagel suggesting yesterday the U.S. may be forced to reinstate the draft. He's a Republican and he says that everybody should "carry some burden." He says it's always the middle class and lower middle class who are on the front lines in war and not "the sons and daughters of the wealthy and the powerful."
So that's the question, do you agree with Senator Hagel that we should bring back the draft in this country?
And a lot of opinions.
Bob in Temple, Texas: "Senator Hagel knows full well that the vast majority of all draftees who fought and died in Vietnam, Korea and WWII were lower middle class and poor boys. He's being totally dishonest in his statement about equal fair sharing of combat burdens."
Dave in Menominee, Michigan: "I think the draft should be reinstated. If there are sons and daughters of the policymakers in the military, there'll be a little more thinking before we foolishly send them to die in a war."
Shawn, who's a staff sergeant in the Air Force, writes this: "How can anyone in the government be talking about starting a draft when the Air Force is in the middle of cutting its force by nearly 16,000 troops? I've been in the Air Force seven years, had planned to make it a career. Because of the force reduction, I'll be getting out next year."
And Ed in Lowell, Massachusetts: "Jack, I'm of the age where the draft was just one of those rites of passage on the road to adulthood. I think it'd be of great benefit to our entitled, self-absorbed youth to have to face a nasty drill instructor at 05:00 hours."
Been there, done that, it's awful.
HEMMER: Drop and give me 50.
CAFFERTY: Yes. Oh, boy. San Antonio, Texas, Lackland Air Force Base.
HEMMER: Oh, is that right?
CAFFERTY: Oh, yes.
O'BRIEN: Is it 05:00 hours you have to get up and do that?
CAFFERTY: It was in the middle of the night. It's kind of like this guy.
HEMMER: Oh dark 30.
CAFFERTY: You just don't have to do pushups here.
HEMMER: I like this kid.
CAFFERTY: That's the only difference.
O'BRIEN: We could make you do pushups if you want.
CAFFERTY: And the management is moderately kinder than the D.I.s. Not a lot, just, but a little.
HEMMER: Yes. Fond memories from this man over here.
O'BRIEN: Clearly.
HEMMER: Let's hit a break here.
In a moment, more on the Iraqi transition plans there. Some of the Pentagon's top officials heading to Capitol Hill yet again today and they can expect some tough questions. Back in a moment on what may be asked a bit later today, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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