Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Is Cease-fire in Fallujah Crumbling?; Michael Jackson Parts Company With Two High-Priced, High-Profile Lawyers
Aired April 26, 2004 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Breaking news out of Iraq. Is the cease-fire in Fallujah crumbling right now? We've got the latest on a new surge of violence.
In Baghdad, Iraqis vent their anger at the United States after a mysterious explosion rips through that city.
And -- off the case. Michael Jackson parts company with his two high-priced, high-profile lawyers. Did they quit, or were they fired?
Plus, trying to escape the water in Arkansas. The search for more victims continues on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
O'BRIEN: Good morning, welcome everybody. We've got a busy morning. Lots of breaking news to get to.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Certainly do want to get you to Fallujah. Watching this live picture and trying to figure out what's happening here between the U.S. Marines in and around that city, and what's happening with the insurgents inside.
Karl Penhaul is embedded there with the U.S. Marines. He works for us here at CNN. Listening to his reports over the past 30 minutes it indicates to us, anyway, that at least 10 Marines were wounded after they took on fire, rockets, mortar rounds, automatic weapons fire.
Four said to be injured seriously. In response, then, the Marines called in for close air support, including helicopters, gun ships, and fighter jets in the air, launching Hellfire missiles as well and other munitions on positions inside of Fallujah.
What we think we are seeing here is an area where the insurgents were operating, and about 15 minutes ago there is a very tall (UNINTELLIGIBLE) near a mosque that was standing. We are told now that is out of the picture because it has been taken down as a result of the firing that's happening there.
As we try and sort out through all of this, the siege on Fallujah does continue. There is talk, possibly, on Tuesday, which would be tomorrow, of joint patrols taking place as a first step to a political solution, meaning the Iraqis would patrol along with the U.S. and coalition forces there. How that happens, when that happens, is not quite certain.
The White House, meanwhile, facing a delicate dilemma of the situation in Fallujah and Najaf.
John King is reporting live for us this morning on the front line with more on there -- John, good morning.
JOHN KING, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.
Administration officials obviously monitoring this firefight and other tense situations not only in Fallujah but in Najaf as well.
Over the weekend, the big debate was should the Marines launch a full scale military offensive now and try to route the insurgency out of Fallujah, or should it try that approach you just mentioned, going on patrol with Iraqi security forces trusting at least one more time local leaders who say they want to negotiate with the insurgents to try to bring security and relative peace at least to the city of Fallujah.
The president and his military team decided to take the lighter approach, if you will, to put off an offensive action a major offensive action for now to try to give the local leaders one more chance to establish security.
That of course is critical from a security perspective but also from a political perspective. The administration would like to see local leaders take a much more assertive role as the United States and the coalition prepare to hand sovereignty back to the Iraqi government but officials here say, Bill, that this is viewed at the White House as a last chance within the next 24 to 48 hours they want to see if you can bring security to Fallujah and Najaf and elsewhere where you have seen the pockets of the insurgency and if cooperation with the local leaders does not work then the White House says the military will have no choice but to prove its mettle in Iraq and use a heavier much heavier military hand to try to quiet this insurgency.
HEMMER: John, clearly you are a political reporter, not a military reporter, but what consideration has the White House given to the military concerns on behalf of the U.S. Marines on the ground not to allow the insurgents to fortify their positions and get ready for a big fight in the event that its delayed for more days as we watch it the past week?
KING: In the end, Bill, the bottom line as this White House says the president will follow the advice of his commanders on the ground and if they think they need to go launch and offensive to stop a build up of stock piles of weapons in Fallujah, the president will support those commanders.
In the meantime, though, he wants to try, first to give any political option or a joint patrols with the Iraqis a last chance because of the reaction -- the political reaction within Iraq, the political reaction across the Arab world, the president hoping to give this one last chance. But, certainly if the Marines or General Abazaid from Central Command calls this White House and says, sir, I think its time to go the White House says the president will not hesitate to give them that authority.
HEMMER: John, thanks for that as we watch that picture again by way of videophone, we can see more firing inside this area with the smoke coming up, a plume of smoke as well.
We will not leave this picture for long. Here's Soledad as well with more.
O'BRIEN: Again we're looking at these -- the smoke really wafting over the city of Fallujah as you mentioned this comes in the wake of a five-hour firefight. Back to the live pictures here. The air power supporting that battle on the ground.
Ten marines wounded, four of them we are told seriously. The siege continues as negotiations in Fallujah continue as well our Jim Clancy is in Baghdad this morning.
More on what's happening in Fallujah and also in fact all around Iraq this morning, Jim, good morning.
JIM CLANCY, CNN: Good morning to you, Soledad.
Certainly, as you look at those pictures they would depict a scene on the ground of intense fighting and you can see from the burning fires that are there its something that's going to be telling that whole city just how unstable the situation is.
That's not a plus for the efforts that have been going on between the coalition and some of the community leaders there they're trying to take back control of the streets, been trying to stave off full scale military action in the city. That's what the U.S. has warned.
The U.S. has also said its willing to walk the extra mile in order to do this peacefully, not to cause more casualties, not to cause more destruction there in Fallujah because after all there are several objectives here. Certainly gaining control of the city through military force is a possibility. It is not in anyone's imagination the best possibility for a long-term solution here.
They don't want to win the ground in Fallujah only to lose all of the support of the people there. Therefore they're trying to take it slow.
There's a problem in all of this, that is the community. The religious leaders in Fallujah do not seem to have control of the gunmen on the streets. These firefights break out and there is a military response to them as the marines go into action as they say in defensive action against those insurgents.
That appears to be what's happening today. They had hopes of joint patrols being mounted Tuesday with Iraqi police and coalition soldiers in that city to take back a bit of the control restore a bit of the stability and normalcy in the city with -- people have been coming back into Fallujah, they've been allowed in, escorted in by the coalition.
That has been going all right. But once again, it's just trying to control the insurgents right now. Is this a last gasp? By some of them opposed to this peace deal? Possibly. It could also be a bad omen for trying to get the cooperation built up on the ground.
O'BRIEN: All right, Jim Clancy for us this morning, Jim, thank you very much for that update.
Of course this latest battle that we're talking about ten Marines killed, four seriously -- rather ten Marines wounded -- strike that -- ten Marines wounded, four of them seriously.
Comes the day after the coalition officials said that they were actually going to focus more on a political track to try to bring thing back under control in Fallujah.
Of course the big problem is it is unclear if Iraqi officials are in control of the city and so you can to some degree negotiate with anybody you want.
But if they don't actually maintain control over the insurgents it can be a moot point.
HEMMER: And this is in Fallujah, there are two other areas really hotbeds so far today in Baghdad earlier today. Four American Humvee have responded to an area in the northeastern part of the city.
An explosion took place and literally you can see the bricks from this building fall on top of four American Humvee. The building was leveled.
Do not have firm indications as to the number of casualties then for the south of Najaf; there are concerns today the coalition saying that guns and weapons are now being hidden in schools and in mosques and in shrines as that city continues to fortify itself from the inside.
O'BRIEN: And in fact will leave us with a question can those cities and the tensions there be eased without an assault, an out and out assault by the coalition forces. Let's go back to Iraq with our guest Melinda Liu; she's with "Newsweek" magazine. And she joins us live from Baghdad this morning.
Melinda, good morning. Thank you for joining us.
First I want to talk a little bit about what Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt had to say about the progress that's being made. Let's start with Fallujah. Listen in to what he said.
O'BRIEN: Well, you know, it looks like we're having a little trouble with that tape so I'm going to give you the essential point of what he said is that these joint patrols that start back in the city, started back in the city on the 27th that that was the significant step and he said if those joint patrols in fact bear fruit it means that the coalition will be back in control inside of Fallujah.
So my question to you is this: how significant do you think it really is? Do you agree with the Brigadier General that it's very significant and since there has been up to now no real sense that the Iraqi forces have been doing a tremendous amount to secure the various cities where there are problems, are we essentially postponing the inevitable -- out and out assault on Fallujah?
MELINDA LIU, NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE: That's a really good question.
I think from the very beginning its been clear that the significance of putting an Iraqi face on security operations has been mainly a political consideration with the transition of sovereignty looming on June 30 it's been very important to try to show Iraqis doing something to help secure their country.
As you just pointed out it hasn't gone well. In fact, it's gone pretty disastrously. Less than half actually did their job when the violence erupted in early April. And as many as 10 or 20 percent actually joined the other side which is even worse.
The rest just ran away. So, it's important politically, is it important militarily? Well, yes, it's important if it works. I think the name of the game now is to try everything short of full frontal in your face military offensive to try to solve this situation in Fallujah.
And of course joint patrols will be part of it; civil affairs works will be part of it. Weapons works turn in programs will be part of it. But, allowing families to go back to their homes will be a big part of it.
But at the very end I think there's a lot of concern that these efforts to try to, you know, dig out the insurgents from Fallujah may end up in the conclusion that Fallujah is the insurgency. From the very beginning Fallujah has been the sort of -- the heart of the anti- coalition Sunni insurgency and it could be that the number of sympathizers there are just too many to actually root them out through these softer tactics.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. We've been looking at pictures and right now we're looking at videotape taken not very long ago of the wake of this battle this five hour firefight that we were talking about and we switched back and forth from the live pictures as well. It really is an incredibly delicate situation and that may be the understatement of the year to some degree.
I think that U.S. forces are in between you know sort of the stereotypical rock and a hard place in this. How long are they willing to wait. I mean, what's -- what really is the timeline?
LIU: Well, I think in Fallujah there is some concern that the longer it drags out, the -- just the worse it gets. I mean I think there is a need to exhaust the peaceful -- peaceful options and quickly move into some kind of military situation. Even if only because you can't maintain a state of siege, you can't maintain combat readiness on the part of the Marines, you know, not moving for too long without a bit of a break or a bit of a kind of a fugue state setting in. You need to keep people proactive, you need to keep them chomping at the bit and you need to keep them looking forward to doing something the next day. If you let them get too passive it's not a good idea.
I think one thing we can say about this situation in Fallujah, this is the urban warfare nightmare that Pentagon planners were worried about last year during the war and which they fortunately avoided last year. Now it's starting to come true here now a year later and it's proven to be every bit the nightmare that they thought it would be.
O'BRIEN: Melinda Liu from "Newsweek" magazine joining us this morning. Thank you for your insight.
We certainly appreciate it. We're going to continue to check in with you throughout today and of course as these -- this continues because of course it does not look like its going to get better, certainly not in the short term.
HEMMER: Without question. Our headline this morning out of Iraq.
Other news to talk about going back to Friday of last week in North Korea the neighbors there rushing to send relief to victims of that explosion. China, South Korea, Japan and Russia have already sent assistance or announced plans to do so soon.
A hundred and sixty one are dead; that figure expected to go higher in North Korea.
In the Middle East, Israeli military officials have identified the new leader of Hamas. They say he is Mahmoud Zahar, but Hamas officials deny that claim. Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon meeting some resistance to his Gaza pull out plan. Three key Israeli ministers rejecting appeals to campaign for the planned withdrawal.
In this country now, Olympic gold medallist Marian Jones denying reports that she was given performance enhancing drugs from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative known as BALCO. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Jones was one of 30 athletes provided with steroids. The labs owner reportedly told federal investigators Jones got the drugs in exchange for endorsing one of the company's nutritional products.
Jones' lawyers called the accusation a quote character assassination of the worst kind, end quote.
From Colorado, Kobe Bryant back in court today the start of a three-day hearing there. Lawyers expected to argue whether or not the sexual history of the woman accusing Bryant of sexual assault is relevant and whether or not it should be presented to the jury. Last week a judge turned down a defense request for access to the accusers medical records. Most of today's hearings will be held behind closed doors in Eagle, Colorado.
Flooding continues along much of north and central Arkansas. Amazing pictures here of the rising waters. At least three are dead from flooding over the weekend. A 2-year-old boy still missing at this time, swept away after his mother's car washed off a bridge into a rain-swollen creek. The governor Mike Huckabee expected to survey those damaged areas today and from the area pictures, Soledad, quite clear the rising waters there have wrought a big toll, not just of property but also to human life on this past weekend.
O'BRIEN: The pictures are terrible and of course that story of the little boy and the 3-year-old girl who perished as well -- terrible, terrible.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning a major shakeup in Michael Jackson's defense team. What will it mean as he faces those child molestation charges against him. We've got legal analysis just ahead from Jeff Toobin.
HEMMER: Also has the U.S. become a low carb nation? Staggering new numbers on the diet craze. We'll get to it after this here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Michael Jackson's lead attorneys Mark Geragos and Benjamin Brafman stepping down from the defense of the pop star. All this move coming now just days after Jackson was indicted by a grand jury and only days away before his arraignment.
Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin has been looking into this talking with some sources on the defense side. Is it fair to say stepping down?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's more like a situation of you can't fire me, I quit. In fact, Ben Brafman and Mark Geragos learned of this dismissal when reporters started calling them.
So they were not -- calling them saying we hear that you're being replaced. They were not directly told by the Jackson camp before Mesereau was hired so it was a pretty unpleasant parting but tension had been building.
HEMMER: What's the rub and why the tension?
TOOBIN: The tension oddly enough has to do with what we -- where we are right now, cable TV.
The Jackson camp was very insistent that Geragos and Brafman respond to every you know new wrinkle in the case that appears on one of the cable TV shows. Brafman and Geragos said look when you respond all you do is extend the story. Besides, we have a gag order in place, we can't do it. That kind of tension, particularly over the push and pull in the media, had been building for some time and it really is what led to the end of their relationship.
HEMMER: So who steps in now?
TOOBIN: Thomas Mesereau, very highly regarded attorney from Los Angeles. He's probably best known to most people because he was one of Robert Blake's three sets of lawyers during his case.
It's worth remembering Michael Jackson's case is a long way from trial -- Mesereau could come and go as well -- high profile people have a habit of changing their minds.
HEMMER: In a big case is there ever a good time to get rid of an attorney?
TOOBIN: Well it's always disruptive but this is far from the worst time. You have the arraignment coming up on Friday, there's still a long time to trial.
Remember the judge couple of months ago said I'd really like to get this case tried by December if I could so December would be the earliest. Many months to go, there's plenty of time to -- for Mesereau to learn what's going on.
But, I mean, to be honest I mean Ben Brafman is personal bias here the best lawyer I've ever seen...
HEMMER: You've said that before on this program.
TOOBIN: And I think that's a loss for Michael Jackson.
HEMMER: Wow, wow. A quick thought here. High profile cases -- big time defendant, the client. They try and get involved in every detail of the case. You think about Martha Stewart. Is there any indication yet as to how much Michael Jackson wants to control his own defense?
TOOBIN: Not clear how much Michael Jackson does. The issue is not so much Jackson as the entourage. I'm informed that it was really Randy and Jermaine Jackson who were the heavy hand in this change of lawyers.
There are a lot of people around Michael Jackson -- the Nation of Islam has been out, they've been in that -- it's a changing cast of characters. Brafman and Geragos were actually hired by a previous group of advisers. That I think is probably what spelled their doom more than anything.
HEMMER: Thanks Jeff. Good to see you on a Monday -- here's Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning we're going to check in with Jack and we have been watching of course that situation out of Fallujah all morning. A firefight taking place despite that cease- fire there. We're going to have the latest on that just ahead. Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: All right, back to Jack and the "Question of the Day."
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you Bill.
The death of football player Pat Tillman who was killed in eastern Afghanistan on Friday dominated the news over the weekend. It was on the front page of every paper Saturday morning, on the TV all weekend long.
This is a guy who walked away from a $3.5 million contract to play pro football with the Arizona Cardinals and instead joined the Army along with his brother following the terrorist attacks on the United States September 11.
At a time when a lot of professional athletes seem selfish and self absorbed, Tillman's decision to serve his country instead of himself stood out. And when he was killed it became a huge story.
But hundreds of other soldiers have made the same sacrifice without any of the attention that Tillman got.
So the question this morning is this: does the media coverage of Pat Tillman's death diminish in any way the sacrifice of others? You can e-mail us at am@cnn.com.
O'BRIEN: I thought a lot about this over the weekend, because I had a similar experience when my co-anchor David Bloom was killed in Iraq -- died -- and I think there was this huge outpouring of support and I don't think it was meant to diminish the other journalists who were also killed or even certainly the men and women who had been sent overseas and didn't choose, like journalists get to choose to go.
You know so I think that people just -- they touch you, somehow. I mean people just felt very touched -- like they knew -- they knew Pat Tillman better.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
O'BRIEN: I think that that would be why as opposed to somehow diminishing the role of other people who have lost their lives. But that's my two cents.
CAFFERTY: Sure. Two cents are most welcome.
HEMMER: I think he stands as a symbol for a lot of people of a lot of the sacrifices. The fact that he walked away from millions and did not do a single interview before he joined the Army; didn't do it for publicity or PR.
John McCain on Friday night said -- in World War II we had heroes in this country and in 2004 I'm proud to say I can sit here and say we've got them again.
CAFFERTY: Why is it McCain is able to say things in a way that people can understand and he's the only politician in Washington that seems to be able to do that? That would be a question for another day.
HEMMER: Thanks Jack. Let's get a break here in a moment. How do soldier's families feel about seeing photos of military caskets on the front page? We'll hear from one family who lost their son in Iraq earlier this month. We'll talk to them live in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 26, 2004 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Breaking news out of Iraq. Is the cease-fire in Fallujah crumbling right now? We've got the latest on a new surge of violence.
In Baghdad, Iraqis vent their anger at the United States after a mysterious explosion rips through that city.
And -- off the case. Michael Jackson parts company with his two high-priced, high-profile lawyers. Did they quit, or were they fired?
Plus, trying to escape the water in Arkansas. The search for more victims continues on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
O'BRIEN: Good morning, welcome everybody. We've got a busy morning. Lots of breaking news to get to.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Certainly do want to get you to Fallujah. Watching this live picture and trying to figure out what's happening here between the U.S. Marines in and around that city, and what's happening with the insurgents inside.
Karl Penhaul is embedded there with the U.S. Marines. He works for us here at CNN. Listening to his reports over the past 30 minutes it indicates to us, anyway, that at least 10 Marines were wounded after they took on fire, rockets, mortar rounds, automatic weapons fire.
Four said to be injured seriously. In response, then, the Marines called in for close air support, including helicopters, gun ships, and fighter jets in the air, launching Hellfire missiles as well and other munitions on positions inside of Fallujah.
What we think we are seeing here is an area where the insurgents were operating, and about 15 minutes ago there is a very tall (UNINTELLIGIBLE) near a mosque that was standing. We are told now that is out of the picture because it has been taken down as a result of the firing that's happening there.
As we try and sort out through all of this, the siege on Fallujah does continue. There is talk, possibly, on Tuesday, which would be tomorrow, of joint patrols taking place as a first step to a political solution, meaning the Iraqis would patrol along with the U.S. and coalition forces there. How that happens, when that happens, is not quite certain.
The White House, meanwhile, facing a delicate dilemma of the situation in Fallujah and Najaf.
John King is reporting live for us this morning on the front line with more on there -- John, good morning.
JOHN KING, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.
Administration officials obviously monitoring this firefight and other tense situations not only in Fallujah but in Najaf as well.
Over the weekend, the big debate was should the Marines launch a full scale military offensive now and try to route the insurgency out of Fallujah, or should it try that approach you just mentioned, going on patrol with Iraqi security forces trusting at least one more time local leaders who say they want to negotiate with the insurgents to try to bring security and relative peace at least to the city of Fallujah.
The president and his military team decided to take the lighter approach, if you will, to put off an offensive action a major offensive action for now to try to give the local leaders one more chance to establish security.
That of course is critical from a security perspective but also from a political perspective. The administration would like to see local leaders take a much more assertive role as the United States and the coalition prepare to hand sovereignty back to the Iraqi government but officials here say, Bill, that this is viewed at the White House as a last chance within the next 24 to 48 hours they want to see if you can bring security to Fallujah and Najaf and elsewhere where you have seen the pockets of the insurgency and if cooperation with the local leaders does not work then the White House says the military will have no choice but to prove its mettle in Iraq and use a heavier much heavier military hand to try to quiet this insurgency.
HEMMER: John, clearly you are a political reporter, not a military reporter, but what consideration has the White House given to the military concerns on behalf of the U.S. Marines on the ground not to allow the insurgents to fortify their positions and get ready for a big fight in the event that its delayed for more days as we watch it the past week?
KING: In the end, Bill, the bottom line as this White House says the president will follow the advice of his commanders on the ground and if they think they need to go launch and offensive to stop a build up of stock piles of weapons in Fallujah, the president will support those commanders.
In the meantime, though, he wants to try, first to give any political option or a joint patrols with the Iraqis a last chance because of the reaction -- the political reaction within Iraq, the political reaction across the Arab world, the president hoping to give this one last chance. But, certainly if the Marines or General Abazaid from Central Command calls this White House and says, sir, I think its time to go the White House says the president will not hesitate to give them that authority.
HEMMER: John, thanks for that as we watch that picture again by way of videophone, we can see more firing inside this area with the smoke coming up, a plume of smoke as well.
We will not leave this picture for long. Here's Soledad as well with more.
O'BRIEN: Again we're looking at these -- the smoke really wafting over the city of Fallujah as you mentioned this comes in the wake of a five-hour firefight. Back to the live pictures here. The air power supporting that battle on the ground.
Ten marines wounded, four of them we are told seriously. The siege continues as negotiations in Fallujah continue as well our Jim Clancy is in Baghdad this morning.
More on what's happening in Fallujah and also in fact all around Iraq this morning, Jim, good morning.
JIM CLANCY, CNN: Good morning to you, Soledad.
Certainly, as you look at those pictures they would depict a scene on the ground of intense fighting and you can see from the burning fires that are there its something that's going to be telling that whole city just how unstable the situation is.
That's not a plus for the efforts that have been going on between the coalition and some of the community leaders there they're trying to take back control of the streets, been trying to stave off full scale military action in the city. That's what the U.S. has warned.
The U.S. has also said its willing to walk the extra mile in order to do this peacefully, not to cause more casualties, not to cause more destruction there in Fallujah because after all there are several objectives here. Certainly gaining control of the city through military force is a possibility. It is not in anyone's imagination the best possibility for a long-term solution here.
They don't want to win the ground in Fallujah only to lose all of the support of the people there. Therefore they're trying to take it slow.
There's a problem in all of this, that is the community. The religious leaders in Fallujah do not seem to have control of the gunmen on the streets. These firefights break out and there is a military response to them as the marines go into action as they say in defensive action against those insurgents.
That appears to be what's happening today. They had hopes of joint patrols being mounted Tuesday with Iraqi police and coalition soldiers in that city to take back a bit of the control restore a bit of the stability and normalcy in the city with -- people have been coming back into Fallujah, they've been allowed in, escorted in by the coalition.
That has been going all right. But once again, it's just trying to control the insurgents right now. Is this a last gasp? By some of them opposed to this peace deal? Possibly. It could also be a bad omen for trying to get the cooperation built up on the ground.
O'BRIEN: All right, Jim Clancy for us this morning, Jim, thank you very much for that update.
Of course this latest battle that we're talking about ten Marines killed, four seriously -- rather ten Marines wounded -- strike that -- ten Marines wounded, four of them seriously.
Comes the day after the coalition officials said that they were actually going to focus more on a political track to try to bring thing back under control in Fallujah.
Of course the big problem is it is unclear if Iraqi officials are in control of the city and so you can to some degree negotiate with anybody you want.
But if they don't actually maintain control over the insurgents it can be a moot point.
HEMMER: And this is in Fallujah, there are two other areas really hotbeds so far today in Baghdad earlier today. Four American Humvee have responded to an area in the northeastern part of the city.
An explosion took place and literally you can see the bricks from this building fall on top of four American Humvee. The building was leveled.
Do not have firm indications as to the number of casualties then for the south of Najaf; there are concerns today the coalition saying that guns and weapons are now being hidden in schools and in mosques and in shrines as that city continues to fortify itself from the inside.
O'BRIEN: And in fact will leave us with a question can those cities and the tensions there be eased without an assault, an out and out assault by the coalition forces. Let's go back to Iraq with our guest Melinda Liu; she's with "Newsweek" magazine. And she joins us live from Baghdad this morning.
Melinda, good morning. Thank you for joining us.
First I want to talk a little bit about what Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt had to say about the progress that's being made. Let's start with Fallujah. Listen in to what he said.
O'BRIEN: Well, you know, it looks like we're having a little trouble with that tape so I'm going to give you the essential point of what he said is that these joint patrols that start back in the city, started back in the city on the 27th that that was the significant step and he said if those joint patrols in fact bear fruit it means that the coalition will be back in control inside of Fallujah.
So my question to you is this: how significant do you think it really is? Do you agree with the Brigadier General that it's very significant and since there has been up to now no real sense that the Iraqi forces have been doing a tremendous amount to secure the various cities where there are problems, are we essentially postponing the inevitable -- out and out assault on Fallujah?
MELINDA LIU, NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE: That's a really good question.
I think from the very beginning its been clear that the significance of putting an Iraqi face on security operations has been mainly a political consideration with the transition of sovereignty looming on June 30 it's been very important to try to show Iraqis doing something to help secure their country.
As you just pointed out it hasn't gone well. In fact, it's gone pretty disastrously. Less than half actually did their job when the violence erupted in early April. And as many as 10 or 20 percent actually joined the other side which is even worse.
The rest just ran away. So, it's important politically, is it important militarily? Well, yes, it's important if it works. I think the name of the game now is to try everything short of full frontal in your face military offensive to try to solve this situation in Fallujah.
And of course joint patrols will be part of it; civil affairs works will be part of it. Weapons works turn in programs will be part of it. But, allowing families to go back to their homes will be a big part of it.
But at the very end I think there's a lot of concern that these efforts to try to, you know, dig out the insurgents from Fallujah may end up in the conclusion that Fallujah is the insurgency. From the very beginning Fallujah has been the sort of -- the heart of the anti- coalition Sunni insurgency and it could be that the number of sympathizers there are just too many to actually root them out through these softer tactics.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. We've been looking at pictures and right now we're looking at videotape taken not very long ago of the wake of this battle this five hour firefight that we were talking about and we switched back and forth from the live pictures as well. It really is an incredibly delicate situation and that may be the understatement of the year to some degree.
I think that U.S. forces are in between you know sort of the stereotypical rock and a hard place in this. How long are they willing to wait. I mean, what's -- what really is the timeline?
LIU: Well, I think in Fallujah there is some concern that the longer it drags out, the -- just the worse it gets. I mean I think there is a need to exhaust the peaceful -- peaceful options and quickly move into some kind of military situation. Even if only because you can't maintain a state of siege, you can't maintain combat readiness on the part of the Marines, you know, not moving for too long without a bit of a break or a bit of a kind of a fugue state setting in. You need to keep people proactive, you need to keep them chomping at the bit and you need to keep them looking forward to doing something the next day. If you let them get too passive it's not a good idea.
I think one thing we can say about this situation in Fallujah, this is the urban warfare nightmare that Pentagon planners were worried about last year during the war and which they fortunately avoided last year. Now it's starting to come true here now a year later and it's proven to be every bit the nightmare that they thought it would be.
O'BRIEN: Melinda Liu from "Newsweek" magazine joining us this morning. Thank you for your insight.
We certainly appreciate it. We're going to continue to check in with you throughout today and of course as these -- this continues because of course it does not look like its going to get better, certainly not in the short term.
HEMMER: Without question. Our headline this morning out of Iraq.
Other news to talk about going back to Friday of last week in North Korea the neighbors there rushing to send relief to victims of that explosion. China, South Korea, Japan and Russia have already sent assistance or announced plans to do so soon.
A hundred and sixty one are dead; that figure expected to go higher in North Korea.
In the Middle East, Israeli military officials have identified the new leader of Hamas. They say he is Mahmoud Zahar, but Hamas officials deny that claim. Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon meeting some resistance to his Gaza pull out plan. Three key Israeli ministers rejecting appeals to campaign for the planned withdrawal.
In this country now, Olympic gold medallist Marian Jones denying reports that she was given performance enhancing drugs from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative known as BALCO. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Jones was one of 30 athletes provided with steroids. The labs owner reportedly told federal investigators Jones got the drugs in exchange for endorsing one of the company's nutritional products.
Jones' lawyers called the accusation a quote character assassination of the worst kind, end quote.
From Colorado, Kobe Bryant back in court today the start of a three-day hearing there. Lawyers expected to argue whether or not the sexual history of the woman accusing Bryant of sexual assault is relevant and whether or not it should be presented to the jury. Last week a judge turned down a defense request for access to the accusers medical records. Most of today's hearings will be held behind closed doors in Eagle, Colorado.
Flooding continues along much of north and central Arkansas. Amazing pictures here of the rising waters. At least three are dead from flooding over the weekend. A 2-year-old boy still missing at this time, swept away after his mother's car washed off a bridge into a rain-swollen creek. The governor Mike Huckabee expected to survey those damaged areas today and from the area pictures, Soledad, quite clear the rising waters there have wrought a big toll, not just of property but also to human life on this past weekend.
O'BRIEN: The pictures are terrible and of course that story of the little boy and the 3-year-old girl who perished as well -- terrible, terrible.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning a major shakeup in Michael Jackson's defense team. What will it mean as he faces those child molestation charges against him. We've got legal analysis just ahead from Jeff Toobin.
HEMMER: Also has the U.S. become a low carb nation? Staggering new numbers on the diet craze. We'll get to it after this here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Michael Jackson's lead attorneys Mark Geragos and Benjamin Brafman stepping down from the defense of the pop star. All this move coming now just days after Jackson was indicted by a grand jury and only days away before his arraignment.
Our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin has been looking into this talking with some sources on the defense side. Is it fair to say stepping down?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's more like a situation of you can't fire me, I quit. In fact, Ben Brafman and Mark Geragos learned of this dismissal when reporters started calling them.
So they were not -- calling them saying we hear that you're being replaced. They were not directly told by the Jackson camp before Mesereau was hired so it was a pretty unpleasant parting but tension had been building.
HEMMER: What's the rub and why the tension?
TOOBIN: The tension oddly enough has to do with what we -- where we are right now, cable TV.
The Jackson camp was very insistent that Geragos and Brafman respond to every you know new wrinkle in the case that appears on one of the cable TV shows. Brafman and Geragos said look when you respond all you do is extend the story. Besides, we have a gag order in place, we can't do it. That kind of tension, particularly over the push and pull in the media, had been building for some time and it really is what led to the end of their relationship.
HEMMER: So who steps in now?
TOOBIN: Thomas Mesereau, very highly regarded attorney from Los Angeles. He's probably best known to most people because he was one of Robert Blake's three sets of lawyers during his case.
It's worth remembering Michael Jackson's case is a long way from trial -- Mesereau could come and go as well -- high profile people have a habit of changing their minds.
HEMMER: In a big case is there ever a good time to get rid of an attorney?
TOOBIN: Well it's always disruptive but this is far from the worst time. You have the arraignment coming up on Friday, there's still a long time to trial.
Remember the judge couple of months ago said I'd really like to get this case tried by December if I could so December would be the earliest. Many months to go, there's plenty of time to -- for Mesereau to learn what's going on.
But, I mean, to be honest I mean Ben Brafman is personal bias here the best lawyer I've ever seen...
HEMMER: You've said that before on this program.
TOOBIN: And I think that's a loss for Michael Jackson.
HEMMER: Wow, wow. A quick thought here. High profile cases -- big time defendant, the client. They try and get involved in every detail of the case. You think about Martha Stewart. Is there any indication yet as to how much Michael Jackson wants to control his own defense?
TOOBIN: Not clear how much Michael Jackson does. The issue is not so much Jackson as the entourage. I'm informed that it was really Randy and Jermaine Jackson who were the heavy hand in this change of lawyers.
There are a lot of people around Michael Jackson -- the Nation of Islam has been out, they've been in that -- it's a changing cast of characters. Brafman and Geragos were actually hired by a previous group of advisers. That I think is probably what spelled their doom more than anything.
HEMMER: Thanks Jeff. Good to see you on a Monday -- here's Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning we're going to check in with Jack and we have been watching of course that situation out of Fallujah all morning. A firefight taking place despite that cease- fire there. We're going to have the latest on that just ahead. Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: All right, back to Jack and the "Question of the Day."
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you Bill.
The death of football player Pat Tillman who was killed in eastern Afghanistan on Friday dominated the news over the weekend. It was on the front page of every paper Saturday morning, on the TV all weekend long.
This is a guy who walked away from a $3.5 million contract to play pro football with the Arizona Cardinals and instead joined the Army along with his brother following the terrorist attacks on the United States September 11.
At a time when a lot of professional athletes seem selfish and self absorbed, Tillman's decision to serve his country instead of himself stood out. And when he was killed it became a huge story.
But hundreds of other soldiers have made the same sacrifice without any of the attention that Tillman got.
So the question this morning is this: does the media coverage of Pat Tillman's death diminish in any way the sacrifice of others? You can e-mail us at am@cnn.com.
O'BRIEN: I thought a lot about this over the weekend, because I had a similar experience when my co-anchor David Bloom was killed in Iraq -- died -- and I think there was this huge outpouring of support and I don't think it was meant to diminish the other journalists who were also killed or even certainly the men and women who had been sent overseas and didn't choose, like journalists get to choose to go.
You know so I think that people just -- they touch you, somehow. I mean people just felt very touched -- like they knew -- they knew Pat Tillman better.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
O'BRIEN: I think that that would be why as opposed to somehow diminishing the role of other people who have lost their lives. But that's my two cents.
CAFFERTY: Sure. Two cents are most welcome.
HEMMER: I think he stands as a symbol for a lot of people of a lot of the sacrifices. The fact that he walked away from millions and did not do a single interview before he joined the Army; didn't do it for publicity or PR.
John McCain on Friday night said -- in World War II we had heroes in this country and in 2004 I'm proud to say I can sit here and say we've got them again.
CAFFERTY: Why is it McCain is able to say things in a way that people can understand and he's the only politician in Washington that seems to be able to do that? That would be a question for another day.
HEMMER: Thanks Jack. Let's get a break here in a moment. How do soldier's families feel about seeing photos of military caskets on the front page? We'll hear from one family who lost their son in Iraq earlier this month. We'll talk to them live in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
