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American Morning
Discussing Testimony by Major General Antonio Taguba Before Senate Armed Services Committee; Recapping Yesterday's Hearing in Sexual Assault Case Against Kobe Bryant
Aired May 11, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: How bad did it get for Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib Prison? The U.S. general who leveled charges of abuse goes before a Senate committee this morning.
The president paying a high price for war with some of the worst approval ratings of his presidency.
And cheating death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN CHAMPA, SON SURVIVED CRASH: When I got to the hospital, I thought oh my god, there's no way he's going to come out of this alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The teenager who drove off a cliff and lived. He tells his story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: That teenager's mother says he had an angel in that ravine to pull him out so.
O'BRIEN: Yes, did you see the pictures of that?
HEMMER: We'll talk to him a bit later this half hour.
O'BRIEN: Wow!
HEMMER: Good morning, everyone.
8:01 here in New York.
Kobe Bryant back before the judge again today. A surprising session yesterday. This accuser in the same courtroom with him for just the second time. We'll look at why she was there in a few moments here.
O'BRIEN: Also this morning, the first U.S. soldier is scheduled to go on trial next week in the Iraqi prison abuse scandal. Jeff Toobin will look at how the rules are different for a court-martial and how that affects what happens next. HEMMER: Also, to Jack Cafferty -- good morning, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
The Cafferty File, less than an hour, pretty cheesy stuff today, actually. What happens if...
O'BRIEN: As opposed to us?
CAFFERTY: As opposed to the usual high brow deal that we do. Thank you for that.
O'BRIEN: Oh, I can't wait.
CAFFERTY: That's what we need is an in-house critic and reviewer for the Cafferty File.
What happens if grandma has the big one and it's too cold to bury her? We'll be exploring that.
And if you're tired of seeing people's back sides because their pants are hanging too low, you'll want to know what the people in Louisiana are proposing.
O'BRIEN: You know what?
CAFFERTY: Cheesy stuff.
O'BRIEN: You're right.
CAFFERTY: I told you. I warned you.
HEMMER: The first thing has a connection to Alaska. Pretty interesting stuff here, right?
CAFFERTY: Well, we hope so. That's how we pick this stuff.
HEMMER: That's right.
Let's get to our top stories here again here at the top of the second hour.
A car bombing in the northern Iraqi town of Kirkuk today. That blast ripped through a market area in a Kurdish neighborhood. Iraqi police say the attack left at least three Iraqis dead and many others wounded. Hundreds of Iraqis on the streets of Najaf. They called on radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to pull his fighters out of the holy city. The new mayor installed there today, day one on the job for him.
President Bush has seen another batch of photos and some video clips of what appears to be U.S. soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners. A White House spokesperson says the president's reaction to that mistreatment was one of deep disgust and disbelief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The actions of a few will not be allowed to stain the honor of the mighty United States military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Seven soldiers have been charged in connection with those abuses.
More violence in the Middle East today. Witnesses say an Israeli helicopter has fired a missile at a car in Gaza. It's not clear if anyone was killed. That car apparently hit in the same area where clashes between Israeli troops and Palestinians have been taking place. Six Israeli soldiers and five Palestinians are dead in what Israel is calling a major operation in Gaza. The Israeli troops were killed when an armored personnel carrier ran over an explosive device in the road.
Disturbing word on the progress of the FBI to modernize its computer systems since 9/11. An outside review of the $600 million effort by technology experts finds it does not adequately reflect the agency's new priority on terrorism prevention. The A.P. got a hold of that report early. It's due out next week.
Also, some amazing basketball action last night in Minnesota. Timberwolves, Sacramento Kings, last night's Western Conference semifinal series. The T. Wolves squandering a 13 point lead with only two minutes to play. They pulled it off, though, in the end, 114-113 over the Kings. Minnesota now takes a 2-1 lead in that series. Nets and Pistons later tonight across the river. 2-1, Detroit leads that series. I'm just keeping you posted.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, because I was waiting here to write that down.
Thank you very much.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: The general whose Pentagon report led to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal tells his story today in public on Capitol Hill. Major General Antonio Taguba will be questioned by members of the Senate Armed Services Committee in a hearing that begins in just about an hour and a half. In his report, Taguba writes of "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the Abu Ghraib Prison just outside of Baghdad.
Democratic Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island is a member of the Armed Services Committee and he joins us this morning from Capitol Hill.
Good morning to you, sir.
Thanks for being with us.
SEN. JACK REED (D-RI), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Good morning, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: We're going to hear this morning not only from General Taguba, but also from the undersecretary of defense, Stephen Cambone, who you were very interested in bringing into this discussion.
What do you want to hear from him?
REED: Well, we're interested and I'm interested in finding out whether there was a policy that encouraged this type of behavior, that, in effect, set the context or the environment that might have prompted these soldiers to act dishonorably and in an abhorrent way. But we have to look high up into the Department of Defense to see if, in fact, they created an environment which led to this problem.
O'BRIEN: Do you, in fact, think that there was a policy that came from people at higher levels -- and I'm not just talking about higher levels of the military intelligence officers, but levels like the undersecretary of defense and something like that -- that endorsed or even created that kind of policy?
REED: Well, there certainly was a policy to soften up prisoners. That policy was put forward in General Miller's report to General Sanchez. He apparently approved it. But the real question is did they have encouragement? Were they being urged by the secretary of defense, Mr. Rumsfeld, or Mr. Cambone, to do this? How did it comport with Army regulations, the Geneva Convention?
There are serious, serious policy questions. I'm skeptical because here's a situation where General Miller was involved in Guantanamo and then also sent, essentially, over to Iraq, two different theaters of operation, two different commanders, yet this policy seems to be consistent and that suggests to me that it was not something that was unaware of in the Department of Defense.
O'BRIEN: Well, so, do you have any evidence so far in any of the reports that you have read or any of the interviews that have been conducted, anything you read in General Taguba's report that would be evidence that would lead you to believe that?
REED: Well, the Taguba report suggests that these treatment of prisoners was being handled in a way that the M.P.s would be softening up these prisoners. And then there is the suggestion of -- or at least the implication that it was approved by General Sanchez. That's the whole point of our hearings today, to begin to ask these questions, to get answers.
I think we have an obligation to look not just at low level soldiers. We're putting a specialist fourth class on trial in Baghdad today. We just can't stop there. We have to look at every level and hopefully exclude the possibility, but we can't ignore the possibility, that this was something that was a mistake in judgment by the senior members of the Department of Defense.
O'BRIEN: There are apparently many, many more photos of abuse, some several hundred photos, some of them showing prisoners being sodomized by light sticks, things like that. Another, they're investigating an allegation of a sexual assault of a female detainee, or attempted, at least, by two or three U.S. soldiers.
To what extent do you think the public should have full awareness of exactly what happened and do you think it should come sort of as a general release or in general leaks that we've received so far?
REED: I think there should be a full and immediate disclosure of all the incidents. There's a sensitive question about the release of photographs, since they're so graphic and so disturbing. But certainly this revelation shouldn't come in bits and pieces. There should be a complete and full candid discussion of what went on in that prison, what went on in other prisons. And we should do it quickly. We shouldn't wait.
O'BRIEN: Senator Jack Reed is a Democrat from Rhode Island joining us this morning.
REED: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Nice to see you, sir.
Thank you.
Just a note. We contacted several Republicans from the Senate Armed Services Committee. None were available to talk about that case this morning.
Also, CNN will provide live coverage of Major General Antonio Taguba's testimony before the committee. That begins at 9:30 a.m. Eastern time -- Bill.
HEMMER: So far, Soledad, the prisoner abuse scandal has resulted in criminal charges against seven U.S. soldiers. One of them, Specialist Jeremy Sivits of Pennsylvania, will be court-martialed in Baghdad a week from tomorrow.
Our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin here, to talk more about this -- good morning to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: Next Wednesday in Baghdad, what does this look like, this court-martial?
TOOBIN: It looks a lot like a regular criminal trial, but with some important differences. Obviously, everyone involved will be in the military -- the judge, the defense attorney, the prosecutor. The defendant, Sivits, will have the choice -- will he be judged by a judge or by a jury? That's up to him. And he will be able to -- and the number of people on the jury fluctuates because of the number of people available. It can be anywhere from three to nine members on a jury. And it takes only two thirds vote for a conviction.
So there are some important differences.
HEMMER: And the burden of proof is less than you would find in, let's say, a regular civilian court, obviously? TOOBIN: No, no, the burden of proof is the same. Also proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but there are certain other rules that do apply.
HEMMER: Walk me through this. A special court-martial, not a general court-martial? What's the difference?
TOOBIN: A big difference. A special court-martial is more like a misdemeanor court. The most prison time you can get in a special court-martial -- and that's what it'll be next week -- is one year. A general court-martial is more like a felony and that you can have even the death penalty apply.
HEMMER: Well...
TOOBIN: So Sivits is only looking at a maximum of a year in prison.
HEMMER: OK. There are some reports that say he's already worked out a plea bargain. We can't confirm that. Don't know if it's the case. Put that to the side.
How do you defend yourself? You come in and say listen, our superiors told us to soften up the detainees, get 'em ready for interrogation. The Sunni Triangle was exploding at the time of this alleged abuse last fall into the winter months. And it was our job to get intel as quickly as we could to save the lives of Marines and soldiers out on the front lines.
TOOBIN: That is often a big issue in court-martials, the just following orders defense. And the military changed the rules on the just following orders defense following the My Lai massacre by American troops in Vietnam late '60s/early '70s. And the rule is that if you are a -- you are required as a soldier to decline to follow an order that a reasonable soldier would know is illegal.
Now, what does that mean? That's obviously going to be debated at the trial. But if you reasonably understand that no one could tell you to sodomize a soldier, that sort of thing, that -- you're not allowed to cite that as a defense, but that's something the jury is probably going to have to evaluate.
HEMMER: And reporters have access to this, so we will be privy to what happens inside there next Wednesday when it gets under way. It may last a day, or even two days, but the bottom -- this is on the fast track, right?
TOOBIN: It's very much on the fast track, which is one reason why people think there's a plea bargain in the works here, because clearly there are going to be general court-martials. The offenses here seem so serious that there will be bigger cases. Not surprising that they'd start with one of the smaller ones.
Keep in mind, though, they will be able to argue for a change of venue, which you think Iraq might not be a fair venue for this. The defense will have a chance. Also, there's another option for the defense here unique to military cases -- command influence. That is a claim by the defense that the commander-in-chief or all of the commanders have essentially ordered a verdict of guilty in this case so they will ask for a dismissal of the counts on the grounds of command influence. A very interesting legal issue that will...
HEMMER: Very interesting.
TOOBIN: ... that as these cases go through the system we'll probably see more of.
HEMMER: All right, thanks, Jeff.
Good to see you.
TOOBIN: All right.
HEMMER: Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Kobe Bryant could enter a plea today. That after a surprise appearance by his accuser. We're going to take you live to Eagle, Colorado for a look at all of that this morning.
HEMMER: Also, a 150 foot cliff plunge in your truck and living to tell the story -- we'll talk to the teen and his mom who did just that in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Also, with so many low carb foods on the market, could some of them be undermining your diet? Dr. Sanjay Gupta will check it all out for us just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Kobe Bryant is expected to enter a not guilty plea in court today or tomorrow at a pretrial hearing in his sexual assault case. Sources tell CNN that both sides have agreed to begin the trial in August. Bryant's accuser made a surprise appearance in the courtroom yesterday.
Reporter Alex Stone has been covering the proceedings for KOA Radio out in Denver.
He joins us now from Eagle, Colorado.
Hey, Alex, good morning.
Nice to see you again, as always.
ALEX STONE, REPORTER, KOA RADIO: Hi, Soledad.
Thanks.
Good to see you, too.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. You know, we've been talking about this big surprise, the accuser being in the courtroom. And I guess we should say a really big surprise for the media that was there, because they really didn't seem to have any advanced notice of it.
Any indications of why she attended? Was it some kind of strategic move? Do you know?
STONE: Well, she was an observer in the courtroom yesterday and a lot of legal experts are saying today it probably was strategic, depending on what she was doing in there and what she was observing in there. We don't know what she was watching because it was a closed door hearing. But you talk about a surprise, it really was. The media was quickly told to put down their cameras -- and most of them probably wouldn't have listened if they would have had time to have thought about it, but everybody didn't -- nobody knew what was going on. So everybody put down their cameras and she was shuttled in through a fire exit and into the courtroom.
But it's really a question of what she was observing in there. She may have been observing expert testimony. She may have been observing evidence that was being presented. We just don't know.
O'BRIEN: Still being decided now is the state's rape shield law, which is keeping the background, the sexual history of this young woman private so far.
What is the expectation? Will those records, in the end, be kept private or not?
STONE: Well, we're going to find out, and we thought that that issue would be done, at least the courtroom issue, and then it would be up to the judge, that the testimony and arguments would be done during this hearing. It does not look like that's going to happen. The judge says there's still some evidence that needs to be presented. That'll now be presented in June.
This one issue about Colorado's rape shield law and the accuser's sexual history just seems like it will not go away. There's been hearing after hearing. They have a little bit more to do. It sounds like they're now going to delay until June. Then it will be up to the judge.
A lot of those legal experts, though, that we keep talking about, they're saying it would be tough in this case for the judge to say that her sexual history is out if, in fact, she was with so many other men around the time she was with Kobe Bryant, because the defense could say that those injuries on her body came from somebody else. And for the judge to toss that out might be difficult in this case.
O'BRIEN: You have said that you think Wednesday is going to be the day when, in fact, Kobe will file his not guilty plea.
Do you think anything more happens than that or is it not guilty, that's it, everybody out? STONE: Well, we could find out that it may happen tonight. The judge is running ahead of schedule right now, which is unusual in this case to be running ahead of schedule. But the court spokeswoman last night saying that they are running ahead and Kobe Bryant, late this evening, may enter his plea. It would be very quick, probably less than a couple of minutes. He would stand up, say "not guilty, your honor," and that would be about it, unless something unusual happens. Most likely that'll be about it, and it could happen tonight.
O'BRIEN: Alex Stone of KOA Radio in Denver, a little update for us on what's happening there in the Kobe Bryant case.
As always, thanks.
We appreciate it.
We'll check in with you again.
HEMMER: Now to this amazing story from the Ohio teenager who lived to tell it. Sixteen-year-old Ryan Whitfield feel asleep at the wheel of his truck and drove off a cliff. He crashed into a ravine 150 feet below. Whitfield amazingly walked away with only minor injuries. In fact, he was the one who called 9/11.
Ryan Whitfield is with us live in Cleveland, Ohio, along with his mother, Karen Champa.
And we say good morning to both of you and thanks for telling your story to us here in AMERICAN MORNING.
Hey, Ryan, I know you fell asleep. I'm not sure how much you remember. But of what you remember, relay that to us, if you could.
RYAN WHITFIELD, SURVIVED CRASH: I was driving home from my girlfriend's house. It was about 12:15. And I was just driving and closed my eyes for about two seconds and I woke up when -- as soon as I went off the road. I saw a couple feet of grass and some bushes in front of me and I could really stop. And I kept driving and it just started banging around and just started rolling down the hill. I didn't really know how far down I was going. And eventually it stopped, after about a second. And I got out of my truck. I climbed out the window and tried to climb up the hill, but it was too muddy and wet. So I went down about 30 feet where there were more trees to hold onto and I climbed up and called my dad and then he came and called the ambulance. And they were there in a couple of minutes.
HEMMER: All right, you are one lucky guy.
Do you realize that?
WHITFIELD: Yup.
HEMMER: Yes. Tell me about your injuries. I can see the scar on your face.
WHITFIELD: I had about 30 or 40 stitches on my face, a black eye, a fractured wrist, a fractured elbow and other than that, nothing really.
HEMMER: Other than that, just another day, huh?
WHITFIELD: Yup.
HEMMER: Listen, you're taking it in great stride. If you -- you called your father with your own cell phone.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
HEMMER: Do you think that saved your life, to get out of there?
WHITFIELD: Probably.
HEMMER: Yes.
If I could ask your mom a quick question here.
Ms. Champa, good morning to you.
CHAMPA: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: You say he had a special angel in that ravine?
CHAMPA: Yes, I do. I believe that. He, he's a tough kid and I know he's strong, but climbing up a 150 foot ravine when you're shook up and in the middle of the night when it's pitch black, I think there was someone helping him get up there.
HEMMER: Wow. You say when Ryan went back, he kind of stood there in amazement and stunned.
Relay that to us if you could.
CHAMPA: Actually, we went back and looked at the site on Sunday and none of us, I don't think, realized until we were really there, and especially Ryan, how deep that ravine really was and how straight down it was. And trying to figure out even where his truck could have rolled down six times, because it's so wooded and everything, he just stood at the edge of the ravine in awe and realized how lucky he was. And I realized that he had received a miracle. We all have, actually.
HEMMER: How was Mother's Day?
CHAMPA: It was wonderful.
HEMMER: I bet it was.
Listen, thanks to both of you. And good to see you.
Ryan, get back to full strength, OK?
WHITFIELD: Yup.
HEMMER: Ryan Whitfield there, Karen Champa, very lucky, from Ohio this morning. CHAMPA: Thank you.
HEMMER: Appreciate it -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the report that started it all. The general who wrote that U.S. soldiers inflicted sadistic and criminal abuse on Iraqi prisoners will be questioned by a Senate panel this morning.
Also ahead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains why those new low carb foods might make it harder to lose weight. We'll explain just ahead, on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Here's Jack -- the Question of the Day.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
The prisoner abuse scandal appears to be galvanizing opposition to the war in Iraq. The most recent "USA Today"/CNN/Gallup poll, taken just this last weekend, shows the number of people who think it was worth going to war in Iraq is declining dramatically. Fifty-four percent of Americans think it was not worth going to war in Iraq, and that's down significantly -- or up significantly from the 33 percent who said it was not worth it just last December.
So the question is has the prisoner abuse scandal changed your view of the war in Iraq?
Lots of responses.
Rick in Sarasota, Florida writes: "The abuse issue has demonstrated we're the wrong people to win the fight for the hearts and minds of Iraqis or anyone else. We may have high moral values, but our standards have produced the kind of people that have carried out these vulgar acts. How can we expect to feed ourselves extreme sex, violence and lack of self-control and then go out in the world and set the standard for other cultures?"
Charlie writes: "To hear the supporters of the accused soldiers in Iraq to say that they were just following orders is disgusting. The guards at the Nazi concentration camps said they were just following orders, an illegal order to abuse or torture a prisoner can and should be disobeyed."
Probably easier said than done, given combat conditions, but a point well taken.
And John from Madison, Wisconsin writes this: "I think what this prisoner problem tells us is that despite having the best military on the planet, we are still suffering from the mistakes we made in greatly reducing the size of our active military because we anticipated a peace dividend at the end of the cold war. We cannot expect Reserve or Guard troops to have the specialized training comparable with active duty troops."
Am@cnn.com if you have some thoughts.
O'BRIEN: I think these hearings are going to be fascinating today...
HEMMER: Oh, yes.
O'BRIEN: ... the ones this morning with General Taguba and later on this afternoon.
CAFFERTY: Absolutely.
HEMMER: I thought Friday was riveting, too.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
CAFFERTY: You know, at some point -- it's just an idea -- but at some point, somebody decides a bunch of enlisted guys are going to have to pay the tab on this thing.
O'BRIEN: It does seem a little strange that...
CAFFERTY: No, I mean we're going to put guys on trial that have one stripe on their sleeve. Uh-nnh.
O'BRIEN: We'll see what happens.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Thank you, Jack.
Still to come this morning, Tim Russert makes America's top leaders squirm on Sunday mornings. Well, this morning we've got some questions for him. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired May 11, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: How bad did it get for Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib Prison? The U.S. general who leveled charges of abuse goes before a Senate committee this morning.
The president paying a high price for war with some of the worst approval ratings of his presidency.
And cheating death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN CHAMPA, SON SURVIVED CRASH: When I got to the hospital, I thought oh my god, there's no way he's going to come out of this alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The teenager who drove off a cliff and lived. He tells his story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: That teenager's mother says he had an angel in that ravine to pull him out so.
O'BRIEN: Yes, did you see the pictures of that?
HEMMER: We'll talk to him a bit later this half hour.
O'BRIEN: Wow!
HEMMER: Good morning, everyone.
8:01 here in New York.
Kobe Bryant back before the judge again today. A surprising session yesterday. This accuser in the same courtroom with him for just the second time. We'll look at why she was there in a few moments here.
O'BRIEN: Also this morning, the first U.S. soldier is scheduled to go on trial next week in the Iraqi prison abuse scandal. Jeff Toobin will look at how the rules are different for a court-martial and how that affects what happens next. HEMMER: Also, to Jack Cafferty -- good morning, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
The Cafferty File, less than an hour, pretty cheesy stuff today, actually. What happens if...
O'BRIEN: As opposed to us?
CAFFERTY: As opposed to the usual high brow deal that we do. Thank you for that.
O'BRIEN: Oh, I can't wait.
CAFFERTY: That's what we need is an in-house critic and reviewer for the Cafferty File.
What happens if grandma has the big one and it's too cold to bury her? We'll be exploring that.
And if you're tired of seeing people's back sides because their pants are hanging too low, you'll want to know what the people in Louisiana are proposing.
O'BRIEN: You know what?
CAFFERTY: Cheesy stuff.
O'BRIEN: You're right.
CAFFERTY: I told you. I warned you.
HEMMER: The first thing has a connection to Alaska. Pretty interesting stuff here, right?
CAFFERTY: Well, we hope so. That's how we pick this stuff.
HEMMER: That's right.
Let's get to our top stories here again here at the top of the second hour.
A car bombing in the northern Iraqi town of Kirkuk today. That blast ripped through a market area in a Kurdish neighborhood. Iraqi police say the attack left at least three Iraqis dead and many others wounded. Hundreds of Iraqis on the streets of Najaf. They called on radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to pull his fighters out of the holy city. The new mayor installed there today, day one on the job for him.
President Bush has seen another batch of photos and some video clips of what appears to be U.S. soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners. A White House spokesperson says the president's reaction to that mistreatment was one of deep disgust and disbelief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The actions of a few will not be allowed to stain the honor of the mighty United States military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Seven soldiers have been charged in connection with those abuses.
More violence in the Middle East today. Witnesses say an Israeli helicopter has fired a missile at a car in Gaza. It's not clear if anyone was killed. That car apparently hit in the same area where clashes between Israeli troops and Palestinians have been taking place. Six Israeli soldiers and five Palestinians are dead in what Israel is calling a major operation in Gaza. The Israeli troops were killed when an armored personnel carrier ran over an explosive device in the road.
Disturbing word on the progress of the FBI to modernize its computer systems since 9/11. An outside review of the $600 million effort by technology experts finds it does not adequately reflect the agency's new priority on terrorism prevention. The A.P. got a hold of that report early. It's due out next week.
Also, some amazing basketball action last night in Minnesota. Timberwolves, Sacramento Kings, last night's Western Conference semifinal series. The T. Wolves squandering a 13 point lead with only two minutes to play. They pulled it off, though, in the end, 114-113 over the Kings. Minnesota now takes a 2-1 lead in that series. Nets and Pistons later tonight across the river. 2-1, Detroit leads that series. I'm just keeping you posted.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, because I was waiting here to write that down.
Thank you very much.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: The general whose Pentagon report led to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal tells his story today in public on Capitol Hill. Major General Antonio Taguba will be questioned by members of the Senate Armed Services Committee in a hearing that begins in just about an hour and a half. In his report, Taguba writes of "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the Abu Ghraib Prison just outside of Baghdad.
Democratic Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island is a member of the Armed Services Committee and he joins us this morning from Capitol Hill.
Good morning to you, sir.
Thanks for being with us.
SEN. JACK REED (D-RI), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Good morning, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: We're going to hear this morning not only from General Taguba, but also from the undersecretary of defense, Stephen Cambone, who you were very interested in bringing into this discussion.
What do you want to hear from him?
REED: Well, we're interested and I'm interested in finding out whether there was a policy that encouraged this type of behavior, that, in effect, set the context or the environment that might have prompted these soldiers to act dishonorably and in an abhorrent way. But we have to look high up into the Department of Defense to see if, in fact, they created an environment which led to this problem.
O'BRIEN: Do you, in fact, think that there was a policy that came from people at higher levels -- and I'm not just talking about higher levels of the military intelligence officers, but levels like the undersecretary of defense and something like that -- that endorsed or even created that kind of policy?
REED: Well, there certainly was a policy to soften up prisoners. That policy was put forward in General Miller's report to General Sanchez. He apparently approved it. But the real question is did they have encouragement? Were they being urged by the secretary of defense, Mr. Rumsfeld, or Mr. Cambone, to do this? How did it comport with Army regulations, the Geneva Convention?
There are serious, serious policy questions. I'm skeptical because here's a situation where General Miller was involved in Guantanamo and then also sent, essentially, over to Iraq, two different theaters of operation, two different commanders, yet this policy seems to be consistent and that suggests to me that it was not something that was unaware of in the Department of Defense.
O'BRIEN: Well, so, do you have any evidence so far in any of the reports that you have read or any of the interviews that have been conducted, anything you read in General Taguba's report that would be evidence that would lead you to believe that?
REED: Well, the Taguba report suggests that these treatment of prisoners was being handled in a way that the M.P.s would be softening up these prisoners. And then there is the suggestion of -- or at least the implication that it was approved by General Sanchez. That's the whole point of our hearings today, to begin to ask these questions, to get answers.
I think we have an obligation to look not just at low level soldiers. We're putting a specialist fourth class on trial in Baghdad today. We just can't stop there. We have to look at every level and hopefully exclude the possibility, but we can't ignore the possibility, that this was something that was a mistake in judgment by the senior members of the Department of Defense.
O'BRIEN: There are apparently many, many more photos of abuse, some several hundred photos, some of them showing prisoners being sodomized by light sticks, things like that. Another, they're investigating an allegation of a sexual assault of a female detainee, or attempted, at least, by two or three U.S. soldiers.
To what extent do you think the public should have full awareness of exactly what happened and do you think it should come sort of as a general release or in general leaks that we've received so far?
REED: I think there should be a full and immediate disclosure of all the incidents. There's a sensitive question about the release of photographs, since they're so graphic and so disturbing. But certainly this revelation shouldn't come in bits and pieces. There should be a complete and full candid discussion of what went on in that prison, what went on in other prisons. And we should do it quickly. We shouldn't wait.
O'BRIEN: Senator Jack Reed is a Democrat from Rhode Island joining us this morning.
REED: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Nice to see you, sir.
Thank you.
Just a note. We contacted several Republicans from the Senate Armed Services Committee. None were available to talk about that case this morning.
Also, CNN will provide live coverage of Major General Antonio Taguba's testimony before the committee. That begins at 9:30 a.m. Eastern time -- Bill.
HEMMER: So far, Soledad, the prisoner abuse scandal has resulted in criminal charges against seven U.S. soldiers. One of them, Specialist Jeremy Sivits of Pennsylvania, will be court-martialed in Baghdad a week from tomorrow.
Our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin here, to talk more about this -- good morning to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: Next Wednesday in Baghdad, what does this look like, this court-martial?
TOOBIN: It looks a lot like a regular criminal trial, but with some important differences. Obviously, everyone involved will be in the military -- the judge, the defense attorney, the prosecutor. The defendant, Sivits, will have the choice -- will he be judged by a judge or by a jury? That's up to him. And he will be able to -- and the number of people on the jury fluctuates because of the number of people available. It can be anywhere from three to nine members on a jury. And it takes only two thirds vote for a conviction.
So there are some important differences.
HEMMER: And the burden of proof is less than you would find in, let's say, a regular civilian court, obviously? TOOBIN: No, no, the burden of proof is the same. Also proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but there are certain other rules that do apply.
HEMMER: Walk me through this. A special court-martial, not a general court-martial? What's the difference?
TOOBIN: A big difference. A special court-martial is more like a misdemeanor court. The most prison time you can get in a special court-martial -- and that's what it'll be next week -- is one year. A general court-martial is more like a felony and that you can have even the death penalty apply.
HEMMER: Well...
TOOBIN: So Sivits is only looking at a maximum of a year in prison.
HEMMER: OK. There are some reports that say he's already worked out a plea bargain. We can't confirm that. Don't know if it's the case. Put that to the side.
How do you defend yourself? You come in and say listen, our superiors told us to soften up the detainees, get 'em ready for interrogation. The Sunni Triangle was exploding at the time of this alleged abuse last fall into the winter months. And it was our job to get intel as quickly as we could to save the lives of Marines and soldiers out on the front lines.
TOOBIN: That is often a big issue in court-martials, the just following orders defense. And the military changed the rules on the just following orders defense following the My Lai massacre by American troops in Vietnam late '60s/early '70s. And the rule is that if you are a -- you are required as a soldier to decline to follow an order that a reasonable soldier would know is illegal.
Now, what does that mean? That's obviously going to be debated at the trial. But if you reasonably understand that no one could tell you to sodomize a soldier, that sort of thing, that -- you're not allowed to cite that as a defense, but that's something the jury is probably going to have to evaluate.
HEMMER: And reporters have access to this, so we will be privy to what happens inside there next Wednesday when it gets under way. It may last a day, or even two days, but the bottom -- this is on the fast track, right?
TOOBIN: It's very much on the fast track, which is one reason why people think there's a plea bargain in the works here, because clearly there are going to be general court-martials. The offenses here seem so serious that there will be bigger cases. Not surprising that they'd start with one of the smaller ones.
Keep in mind, though, they will be able to argue for a change of venue, which you think Iraq might not be a fair venue for this. The defense will have a chance. Also, there's another option for the defense here unique to military cases -- command influence. That is a claim by the defense that the commander-in-chief or all of the commanders have essentially ordered a verdict of guilty in this case so they will ask for a dismissal of the counts on the grounds of command influence. A very interesting legal issue that will...
HEMMER: Very interesting.
TOOBIN: ... that as these cases go through the system we'll probably see more of.
HEMMER: All right, thanks, Jeff.
Good to see you.
TOOBIN: All right.
HEMMER: Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Kobe Bryant could enter a plea today. That after a surprise appearance by his accuser. We're going to take you live to Eagle, Colorado for a look at all of that this morning.
HEMMER: Also, a 150 foot cliff plunge in your truck and living to tell the story -- we'll talk to the teen and his mom who did just that in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Also, with so many low carb foods on the market, could some of them be undermining your diet? Dr. Sanjay Gupta will check it all out for us just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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O'BRIEN: Kobe Bryant is expected to enter a not guilty plea in court today or tomorrow at a pretrial hearing in his sexual assault case. Sources tell CNN that both sides have agreed to begin the trial in August. Bryant's accuser made a surprise appearance in the courtroom yesterday.
Reporter Alex Stone has been covering the proceedings for KOA Radio out in Denver.
He joins us now from Eagle, Colorado.
Hey, Alex, good morning.
Nice to see you again, as always.
ALEX STONE, REPORTER, KOA RADIO: Hi, Soledad.
Thanks.
Good to see you, too.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. You know, we've been talking about this big surprise, the accuser being in the courtroom. And I guess we should say a really big surprise for the media that was there, because they really didn't seem to have any advanced notice of it.
Any indications of why she attended? Was it some kind of strategic move? Do you know?
STONE: Well, she was an observer in the courtroom yesterday and a lot of legal experts are saying today it probably was strategic, depending on what she was doing in there and what she was observing in there. We don't know what she was watching because it was a closed door hearing. But you talk about a surprise, it really was. The media was quickly told to put down their cameras -- and most of them probably wouldn't have listened if they would have had time to have thought about it, but everybody didn't -- nobody knew what was going on. So everybody put down their cameras and she was shuttled in through a fire exit and into the courtroom.
But it's really a question of what she was observing in there. She may have been observing expert testimony. She may have been observing evidence that was being presented. We just don't know.
O'BRIEN: Still being decided now is the state's rape shield law, which is keeping the background, the sexual history of this young woman private so far.
What is the expectation? Will those records, in the end, be kept private or not?
STONE: Well, we're going to find out, and we thought that that issue would be done, at least the courtroom issue, and then it would be up to the judge, that the testimony and arguments would be done during this hearing. It does not look like that's going to happen. The judge says there's still some evidence that needs to be presented. That'll now be presented in June.
This one issue about Colorado's rape shield law and the accuser's sexual history just seems like it will not go away. There's been hearing after hearing. They have a little bit more to do. It sounds like they're now going to delay until June. Then it will be up to the judge.
A lot of those legal experts, though, that we keep talking about, they're saying it would be tough in this case for the judge to say that her sexual history is out if, in fact, she was with so many other men around the time she was with Kobe Bryant, because the defense could say that those injuries on her body came from somebody else. And for the judge to toss that out might be difficult in this case.
O'BRIEN: You have said that you think Wednesday is going to be the day when, in fact, Kobe will file his not guilty plea.
Do you think anything more happens than that or is it not guilty, that's it, everybody out? STONE: Well, we could find out that it may happen tonight. The judge is running ahead of schedule right now, which is unusual in this case to be running ahead of schedule. But the court spokeswoman last night saying that they are running ahead and Kobe Bryant, late this evening, may enter his plea. It would be very quick, probably less than a couple of minutes. He would stand up, say "not guilty, your honor," and that would be about it, unless something unusual happens. Most likely that'll be about it, and it could happen tonight.
O'BRIEN: Alex Stone of KOA Radio in Denver, a little update for us on what's happening there in the Kobe Bryant case.
As always, thanks.
We appreciate it.
We'll check in with you again.
HEMMER: Now to this amazing story from the Ohio teenager who lived to tell it. Sixteen-year-old Ryan Whitfield feel asleep at the wheel of his truck and drove off a cliff. He crashed into a ravine 150 feet below. Whitfield amazingly walked away with only minor injuries. In fact, he was the one who called 9/11.
Ryan Whitfield is with us live in Cleveland, Ohio, along with his mother, Karen Champa.
And we say good morning to both of you and thanks for telling your story to us here in AMERICAN MORNING.
Hey, Ryan, I know you fell asleep. I'm not sure how much you remember. But of what you remember, relay that to us, if you could.
RYAN WHITFIELD, SURVIVED CRASH: I was driving home from my girlfriend's house. It was about 12:15. And I was just driving and closed my eyes for about two seconds and I woke up when -- as soon as I went off the road. I saw a couple feet of grass and some bushes in front of me and I could really stop. And I kept driving and it just started banging around and just started rolling down the hill. I didn't really know how far down I was going. And eventually it stopped, after about a second. And I got out of my truck. I climbed out the window and tried to climb up the hill, but it was too muddy and wet. So I went down about 30 feet where there were more trees to hold onto and I climbed up and called my dad and then he came and called the ambulance. And they were there in a couple of minutes.
HEMMER: All right, you are one lucky guy.
Do you realize that?
WHITFIELD: Yup.
HEMMER: Yes. Tell me about your injuries. I can see the scar on your face.
WHITFIELD: I had about 30 or 40 stitches on my face, a black eye, a fractured wrist, a fractured elbow and other than that, nothing really.
HEMMER: Other than that, just another day, huh?
WHITFIELD: Yup.
HEMMER: Listen, you're taking it in great stride. If you -- you called your father with your own cell phone.
WHITFIELD: Yes.
HEMMER: Do you think that saved your life, to get out of there?
WHITFIELD: Probably.
HEMMER: Yes.
If I could ask your mom a quick question here.
Ms. Champa, good morning to you.
CHAMPA: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: You say he had a special angel in that ravine?
CHAMPA: Yes, I do. I believe that. He, he's a tough kid and I know he's strong, but climbing up a 150 foot ravine when you're shook up and in the middle of the night when it's pitch black, I think there was someone helping him get up there.
HEMMER: Wow. You say when Ryan went back, he kind of stood there in amazement and stunned.
Relay that to us if you could.
CHAMPA: Actually, we went back and looked at the site on Sunday and none of us, I don't think, realized until we were really there, and especially Ryan, how deep that ravine really was and how straight down it was. And trying to figure out even where his truck could have rolled down six times, because it's so wooded and everything, he just stood at the edge of the ravine in awe and realized how lucky he was. And I realized that he had received a miracle. We all have, actually.
HEMMER: How was Mother's Day?
CHAMPA: It was wonderful.
HEMMER: I bet it was.
Listen, thanks to both of you. And good to see you.
Ryan, get back to full strength, OK?
WHITFIELD: Yup.
HEMMER: Ryan Whitfield there, Karen Champa, very lucky, from Ohio this morning. CHAMPA: Thank you.
HEMMER: Appreciate it -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the report that started it all. The general who wrote that U.S. soldiers inflicted sadistic and criminal abuse on Iraqi prisoners will be questioned by a Senate panel this morning.
Also ahead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains why those new low carb foods might make it harder to lose weight. We'll explain just ahead, on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
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HEMMER: Here's Jack -- the Question of the Day.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
The prisoner abuse scandal appears to be galvanizing opposition to the war in Iraq. The most recent "USA Today"/CNN/Gallup poll, taken just this last weekend, shows the number of people who think it was worth going to war in Iraq is declining dramatically. Fifty-four percent of Americans think it was not worth going to war in Iraq, and that's down significantly -- or up significantly from the 33 percent who said it was not worth it just last December.
So the question is has the prisoner abuse scandal changed your view of the war in Iraq?
Lots of responses.
Rick in Sarasota, Florida writes: "The abuse issue has demonstrated we're the wrong people to win the fight for the hearts and minds of Iraqis or anyone else. We may have high moral values, but our standards have produced the kind of people that have carried out these vulgar acts. How can we expect to feed ourselves extreme sex, violence and lack of self-control and then go out in the world and set the standard for other cultures?"
Charlie writes: "To hear the supporters of the accused soldiers in Iraq to say that they were just following orders is disgusting. The guards at the Nazi concentration camps said they were just following orders, an illegal order to abuse or torture a prisoner can and should be disobeyed."
Probably easier said than done, given combat conditions, but a point well taken.
And John from Madison, Wisconsin writes this: "I think what this prisoner problem tells us is that despite having the best military on the planet, we are still suffering from the mistakes we made in greatly reducing the size of our active military because we anticipated a peace dividend at the end of the cold war. We cannot expect Reserve or Guard troops to have the specialized training comparable with active duty troops."
Am@cnn.com if you have some thoughts.
O'BRIEN: I think these hearings are going to be fascinating today...
HEMMER: Oh, yes.
O'BRIEN: ... the ones this morning with General Taguba and later on this afternoon.
CAFFERTY: Absolutely.
HEMMER: I thought Friday was riveting, too.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
CAFFERTY: You know, at some point -- it's just an idea -- but at some point, somebody decides a bunch of enlisted guys are going to have to pay the tab on this thing.
O'BRIEN: It does seem a little strange that...
CAFFERTY: No, I mean we're going to put guys on trial that have one stripe on their sleeve. Uh-nnh.
O'BRIEN: We'll see what happens.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Thank you, Jack.
Still to come this morning, Tim Russert makes America's top leaders squirm on Sunday mornings. Well, this morning we've got some questions for him. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
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