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American Morning
Interview With Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison
Aired May 13, 2004 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A top-secret trip for Donald Rumsfeld in Iraq at this hour, and how will this trip influence the prison abuse scandal?
In focus this morning, John Kerry's presidential campaign. Is he missing a political moment of opportunity?
And spring dealing up another series of massive tornadoes. All this morning on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, welcome everybody. We've got a big story that's been developing overnight.
We're talking about Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and in fact in a visit reminiscent of that made by President Bush last Thanksgiving, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld now on a surprise trip to see U.S. forces in Iraq.
Details now from the Iraqi capitol of Baghdad where Karl Penhaul is standing by for us this morning. Karl, good morning.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Soledad. Good morning.
Don Rumsfeld touched down early afternoon Baghdad time. The exact details of his agenda are being kept under tight wraps for security reasons.
Now during that 15-hour flight from Washington he did tell reporters that he didn't intend to come to Iraq to pour water on the fire, referring there to the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, but it does seem inevitable that a lot of his time here in Baghdad during today -- it's a day long visit -- it's only inevitable that he'll spend a lot of time answering questions about Abu Ghraib scandal and also trying to find some answers that he needs so that when he goes back to Washington he can answer his detractors and also figure out what to do.
We're also expecting to be meeting military top brass and also to be meeting some of the rank and file soldiers to help some kind of morale boost campaign there also, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Karl, a couple of quick questions for you. First, and I know the details are sketchy, obviously for security reasons, but any sense of how long the secretary will be spending in Iraq?
PENHAUL: Not exactly, although this is going to be a day-long visit, so we would expect that some time after nightfall Donald Rumsfeld will be back on his way back to Washington.
O'BRIEN: And is there a general sense -- and, again, you told me you expect he'll be meeting with some military brass, also some of the enlisted as well who are there.
Any sense of who else -- who specifically he might be meeting with -- and again, I understand because of security concerns a lot of this information has been kept under wraps.
PENHAUL: Exactly. But also, in -- the fact that he's traveling here with Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers would indicate that he'll be meeting the senior military commanders here on the ground.
As a political as well one might also expect that he could meet with some members of the Iraqi Governing Council and the political side of the coalition authorities here, but none of those details at this point confirmed, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: And we will see if in fact the secretary makes some comments as well live from his visit in Iraq.
Karl Penhaul for us this morning. Karl, thanks, and of course we'll check in with you throughout the morning for this breaking story -- Bill.
HEMMER: So then how will this trip effect the prison abuse stories?
CNN military analyst retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd live today in Phoenix, Arizona.
Don good to see you again. Your take on Secretary Rumsfeld's visit?
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, despite the fact that people are saying it's -- that prison abuse is not the reason for this, it's certainly part of it, Bill.
He's got people all over his back, some calling for his resignation, even some from his own Party beginning to rumble.
So it makes sense for the secretary to go to the scene of the crime, if you will, Abu Ghraib Prison and go firsthand.
Talk to the people involved, talk to General Abizaid and General Sanchez, the Coalition Provisional Authority, the Iraqi Governing Council. This just makes sense.
He accepted responsibility, he says it happened on my watch, and now he's at the scene.
HEMMER: Don, are you in the camp that says that prison should be torn down as a symbol more than anything to the Iraqi people?
SHEPPERD: Yes, it's a great idea to tear it down. The problem is it's a real prison and constructing another real prison in that area with everything else going on -- it can act as a facility to hold two to four thousand detainees in a secure manner is a very difficult thing, Bill.
So it's a good idea to tear it down symbol wise, but you've got to have something to replace it, and it's not easy.
HEMMER: It's my understanding just yesterday you were looking into military intelligence, a training center. What did you learn about interrogation there?
SHEPPERD: Bill, I was at the military intelligence training center at Fort Wachuka, Arizona, and what I learned was they are as sickened about this, probably more so, than the rest of America.
Because they trained the interrogators, the military intelligence people, the human intelligence collectors, as they call them; that were involved in this.
There is nothing that they train or do that would lead to this type of action. They feel it's the action of a renegade few plus the breakdown of the chain of command. I just picked that up -- they didn't say that, but I picked that up from their feelings and talking to them.
This is against everything that they are taught -- it's against the law, it's against what they preach, it makes no sense to them, and they feel besmirched by it, Bill.
HEMMER: Did it put it into a different context for you as a military man?
SHEPPERD: It did, because I've never seen exactly how the training -- how they train interrogators. I was so impressed by the quality of these young kids.
About probably 90 percent of the class had degrees; some of them graduate degrees there. They came in because they wanted to serve their country. And the types of training that they get, the length of the course, it's about 16 week course, we saw the graduation -- part of the graduation exercise.
We watched mock interrogations -- we talked to the people that are graduating; we asked them what they would do if they faced a situation like this. I was impressed by the Army; I was so impressed by the kids that are going to be interrogating prisoners in the future.
HEMMER: Major General Don Shepperd, live in Phoenix, Arizona this morning. Thanks, Don. Good to see you. Soledad.
O'BRIEN: There are new questions this morning about the case of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian beheaded by Islamic militants. Did the U.S. government delay his departure from Iraq? And did that in some way contribute to his death, as his family seems to be claiming?
Maria Hinojosa is in Berg's hometown; she has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FBI says its agents offered Nick Berg safe passage out of Iraq, warning the young man that Iraq was a volatile place for an unprotected American.
Michael Berg, his father, says his son told him he turned down the offer of a flight out because the road to the airport was too dangerous to travel.
On Wednesday, though, the family had to deal with the unfortunate reality of death. A father meeting with a funeral director to discuss laying his 26-year-old son to rest.
A family in mourning, but now also angry. Not only at hooded murderers, but at the U.S. government for denying that Nick Berg was ever detained by U.S. authorities in Iraq.
MICHAEL BERG, FATHER OF NICK BERG: That's really what cost my son his life, was the fact that the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights, and release him when they were good and ready.
HINOJOSA: Brother David also broke his silence, saying that Nicholas had sent e-mails from Iraq about being held in U.S. custody.
While detained in Iraq, the Berg family sued Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense on April 5, demanding Nicholas' release. One day later, Nick Berg was let go and the suit was dropped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My family is devastated.
HINOJOSA: His sister spoke briefly and emotionally, the sorrow etched on her face.
Nick Berg was, according to friends, a humanitarian and an adventurer.
BRUCE HAUSER, FRIEND OF FAMILY: So he saw it as an opportunity to drum up some business for his own company and, knowing Nick, when he got there -- Nick is all about rebuilding, you know, and I'm certain that Nick had it in his mind that he's going to do something to help.
HINOJOSA: But Nicholas Berg never fulfilled his promise to himself. Lost amid the confusion of war and the post-9/11 new world order -- his father searching for blame, tries to understand.
Nick Berg's father holds the U.S. government at least partially responsible for his son's death. Late Wednesday, the FBI announced they were taking over as lead investigators into this case, while the family says they were making plans for a memorial to be held this Friday.
Maria Hinojosa, CNN, West Chester, Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Coming up in our next hour, we're going to talk with the Berg family friend and neighbor, Bruce Hauser, who you saw in that report just a moment ago.
That comes up at 8:00 a.m. Eastern time.
HEMMER: Eight minutes past the hour, Soledad. Other headlines this morning.
Stomach-turning and appalling is how some lawmakers describe new images of abuse in Iraqi prisons.
Pentagon officials brought photographs and video clips to a private screening room in the Capitol building yesterday. Many lawmakers say they do not believe the images should be made public, at least for now.
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison has seen the photos -- she joins us in a few moments here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Three U.S. soldiers now been formally referred for a court martial in connection with the abuse. The military announced that Staff Sargent Ivan "Chip" Frederick and Sargent Javal Davis will face courts martial.
Charges include mistreating detainees at Abu Ghraib Prison and dereliction of duty there. Specialist Jeremy Sivits is set to be the first to go before a tribunal in Baghdad of Wednesday next week. At least four other soldiers so far have been charged in related matters there.
India's prime minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, expected to offer his resignation today.
Unofficial resolve from the country's parliamentary elections show millions of voters supporting Sonia Gandhi and her opposition Congress Party to lead India's government.
The upset apparently surprising the prime minister who had called for parliamentary elections six months early.
A deal will soon be agreed between director Michael Moore and Disney regarding the release of his new controversial film. Miramax pictures -- the bosses there -- Bob and Harvey Weinstein apparently will buy back the movie and distribute it themselves.
"Fahrenheit 9/11" strongly criticizing the White House and President Bush and the handling of the 9/11 tragedy. It's tornado season -- the country's heartland --ominous looking storm clouds spawned this twister yesterday afternoon. South-central Kansas, a monster yet again.
Watch closely -- swirling with intensity the twister damaging three homes, blowing out windows and taking off roofs. It also moved through the town of Attica near the Oklahoma border. Residents there taking cover. Luckily, yet again, as we reported for so many days now, no one was hurt.
You see these images it is a shocker to us every time.
O'BRIEN: Those pictures pretty incredible.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: In a moment get to Jack Cafferty on our e-mail question, a good one yet again today.
Also lawmakers getting a look at more pictures of abuse at Abu Ghraib Prison -- should the new material be public? We'll hear from Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison in a moment here.
O'BRIEN: And the scandal takes a political toll on President Bush, but Senator John Kerry doesn't seem to be gaining any ground. We've got analysis ahead this morning from Jeff Greenfield.
HEMMER: Also, the government proposes major changes to improve safety in side impact crashes. The benefits and the cost to the buyer ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Some mixed emotions on Capitol Hill this morning as lawmakers react to the unreleased material depicting abuse of Iraqi prisoners that they have now seen.
Texas Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison saw the images yesterday.
She joins us this morning from Washington, D.C. with her reaction.
Nice to see you, Senator. Thanks for being with us.
SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R), TEXAS: Thank you, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of -- you've seen them -- how bad are they?
HUTCHISON: Bad. There's no doubt about it. I think the public has seen much of the image but what we saw was un-retouched so it was graphic.
O'BRIEN: I think we need to get into some detail here so forgive me especially because of the early hour, but I think a lot of the questions surround -- are there graphic depictions of rape? Are there graphic depictions of sodomy in that group of photographs that you have seen?
HUTCHISON: I did not see evidence of rape in the pictures that I saw. I did not. There were other kinds of sexual activity and I think that it was graphic because, of course, we saw pictures that hadn't been in any way protected.
O'BRIEN: Digitally enhanced or digitally -- rather -- blacked out so you couldn't make out all the details.
HUTCHISON: Right.
O'BRIEN: Democratic Senator Carl Levin as you well know said yesterday on our program that he thought all the pictures should be released to the public. He said we should basically get it out in the open so that everyone could move forward. Do you agree or disagree with that?
HUTCHISON: Soledad, I don't think that is a decision that we should make. I think there are factors to be considered.
For one thing, we have 130,000 troops in Iraq and they are trying to work with the Iraqi people and help the Iraqi people.
This is -- I think we have seen enough to see what has happened and to be very shocked and stunned and not pleased with the situation. I think any more of this could harm our troops; our troops are doing a great job. We're talking about ten or twelve people here who I think probably went out of control.
So, I don't know that letting everything out is the best thing for the prosecution of the people who did the wrong things and the incitement that could hurt the security of our troops.
O'BRIEN: Those who disagree with you would say, Senator, you know they're going to leak out anyway and they're going to leak out in dribs and drabs. And every time they leak out there will be a new headline and a new scandal. What are your answers to those critics?
HUTCHISON: Soledad, I think that could be true, that very well could be true, but for us to officially release photos that could jeopardize the privacy of people in the photos, which has to be a consideration, which might jeopardize the prosecution of people who have done something wrong, and for what purpose?
And security of our troops should be our number one goal. We should not be doing things that might be hurtful. Maybe down the road later is another issue, but I think the Pentagon needs to make that decision based on several factors, not just what more can we see.
I think we have seen what we need to see to show the kind of enemy we're facing and I think the enemy is more projected through the pictures of the grisly death of Mr. Berg.
O'BRIEN: I'm sure you recall the remarks of your Republican colleague Senator Inhofe who I think his exact words were he was outraged by the outrage over the pictures. Do you agree with his assessment?
HUTCHISON: I think that we want to be better than our enemy. We want to have moral authority and I think America does. I think our troops have shown that.
I think the Pat Tillman's of the world have shown that and that's what we need to project. So of course when we see our own people doing something that is not within the Geneva Convention, I think then we should be concerned about that, rightly so.
But I think that we must also keep our eye on the ball, that we are facing an enemy that would execute someone on videotape. There is nothing like that in what we have seen.
We have seen a violation of our moral conduct and standards, but we have not seen the viciousness of the animals who would kill someone on videotape.
O'BRIEN: Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, sounds like you're struggling with a little bit of a sore throat this morning.
HUTCHISON: Yes, I'm...
O'BRIEN: So thank you for joining us; we certainly appreciate it.
At the top of our hour, at our final hour, at 9:00 Eastern time, we're going to talk with Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts who has been highly critical of the president's policy in Iraq -- Bill.
HEMMER: At 19 past the hour now, the prisoner abuse scandal taking a political toll on the president. The latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll showing his job approval rating at an all time low.
But the same poll has the president even or slightly ahead of his challenger, Senator John Kerry. Pointing to Senator Kerry's inability to take political advantage of the trouble.
That was something that caught David Letterman's attention a bit earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE SHOW": The gas prices are up, the stock market is down, Iraq is a mess, and John Kerry is saying to himself, how am I going to beat this guy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: For some hunches this morning as to why, our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield checking back in with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
Good morning to you. We hear the grumbling from so many Democratic corners and the blame goes to John Kerry, because they say he can't gain traction.
How does John Kerry defend himself?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he's been asked about this from everybody from Tim Russert to Don Imus, and he has the same answer; that he's running better than any challenger to an incumbent in history at this point and I think except for Carter- Ford in '76 that's true.
He says he's getting record crowds, which is irrelevant -- ask McGovern about big crowds.
He then recites his basic case against President Bush and he does note that the Bush campaign has spent some $60-70 million with a mostly negative ad campaign and that has clearly not helped voter's impression of him.
I do think one key point was made by Andrew Kohut, who is a pollster in a "New York Times" op-ed piece yesterday who wrote, "As in the past, the focus at this stage is on the man in the White House and given the events in Iraq, it is unlikely to come off of him any time soon. Mr. Kerry's lack of progress should not for now be cause for concern to Democrats. Public opinion about Mr. Bush is the far more important barometer. And if it remains low, Mr. Kerry will have a chance to make his case."
So, you know, it may be a little premature for the Democrats to start panicking, maybe.
HEMMER: But back to this issue of traction. Does he have real problems? Does he have real troubles? Or is it something he can dig himself out of?
GREENFIELD: I'll give you a political answer -- both. Some of his problem is temporary. I mean, remember, people are comparing Kerry now to the numbers he was running up in the middle of the primary campaign.
There was no anti-Kerry message coming from the president or for that matter from any of his primary opponents. This was an incredibly genial campaign.
So when voters first heard the case against him in the Bush commercials, his numbers had to drop. OK, that's temporary. But the potentially long-term problems I think are two fold.
First, is the Bush campaign going to succeed in portraying John Kerry as someone on the wrong side of a culture war, in general -- elitist. Out of step with Middle America's notion about everything from faith to patriotism to food.
Second, does Kerry present himself as a public figure who always gives you a six-point answer to a one-part question, always splitting hairs to prove he hasn't changed his mind and someone who talks in Senate speak, not plain English? Which is a real problem for many senators and congressmen. And with all that, I'm going to say this again -- maybe we should get a tote board of how many times you ought to say this -- this is May, most normal people are not excited by the campaign because they know, Bill, they don't have to vote for six months.
And I have to say a president of pre-election may have even more calls for long when he looks at the job approval numbers, the basic re-elect question, would you reelect this guy, do you want someone new -- than the challenger does.
HEMMER: Most normal people -- but we're not normal.
Secretary Rumsfeld is in Iraq today, he got on a plane. If anybody thinks I'm in Iraq to throw water on the fire, they're wrong.
He continued by saying we care about the detainees being treated right, we care about soldiers behaving right. Politically, much impact here or is this a military impact?
GREENFIELD: This may have been to buck up the troops, but remember when Bush went to Iraq for Thanksgiving and posed with the turkey and we all said, ah, genius, big deal.
The aircraft carrier picture? Ah, Karl Rove is a genius; it'll be in every campaign commercial. Now it's going to be in Kerry's commercials.
I think politically this is nothing. Nothing. I mean we do this every time somebody moves we got to analyze the politics of it and sometimes the right answer is it doesn't mean much so I'm sticking with that one for now.
HEMMER: And then again we're not normal.
GREENFIELD: Well there is that.
HEMMER: Thank you Jeff. Talk to you later. Here's Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, lawmakers see more disturbing pictures of prisoner abuse. The question now though is will those pictures be made public. That's ahead.
Also, a soccer game brings a reason to celebrate in the Iraqi streets.
Those stories ahead as AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back to Jack, "Question of the Day."
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill.
While we all collectively express shock and outrage at the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners, several psychologists say they're shocked that we're shocked.
Mistreatment of prisoners during wartime is nothing new. It's happened in every war that's ever been fought. The difference this time is we have pictures.
There's another difference. The government has argued that the war on terrorism sometimes requires the suspension of civil liberties, and if it's OK to change the rules for us, why shouldn't it be OK for the enemy too?
Here's the question this morning: what's inappropriate interrogation technique in time of war? Am@cnn.com.
O'BRIEN: Interesting question; I like that today.
CAFFERTY: Why, thank you.
HEMMER: It's loaded. Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: I've been working hard on this thing -- working hard.
HEMMER: Every day.
O'BRIEN: Staff getting any sleep?
CAFFERTY: I wrote that -- a little credit. I wrote the lead-in, I made her necklace. I do a lot of stuff around here.
O'BRIEN: You do it all.
CAFFERTY: I do it all.
HEMMER: And you brewed the coffee.
CAFFERTY: A Renaissance man.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: You're most welcome.
HEMMER: In a moment here you have the surprise visit and ongoing scandal. Some say it's going to get worse before it gets better but the ultimate question today; how is it playing on the Arab street and how is it playing in Iraqi cities? Some thoughts in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired May 13, 2004 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A top-secret trip for Donald Rumsfeld in Iraq at this hour, and how will this trip influence the prison abuse scandal?
In focus this morning, John Kerry's presidential campaign. Is he missing a political moment of opportunity?
And spring dealing up another series of massive tornadoes. All this morning on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, welcome everybody. We've got a big story that's been developing overnight.
We're talking about Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and in fact in a visit reminiscent of that made by President Bush last Thanksgiving, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld now on a surprise trip to see U.S. forces in Iraq.
Details now from the Iraqi capitol of Baghdad where Karl Penhaul is standing by for us this morning. Karl, good morning.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Soledad. Good morning.
Don Rumsfeld touched down early afternoon Baghdad time. The exact details of his agenda are being kept under tight wraps for security reasons.
Now during that 15-hour flight from Washington he did tell reporters that he didn't intend to come to Iraq to pour water on the fire, referring there to the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, but it does seem inevitable that a lot of his time here in Baghdad during today -- it's a day long visit -- it's only inevitable that he'll spend a lot of time answering questions about Abu Ghraib scandal and also trying to find some answers that he needs so that when he goes back to Washington he can answer his detractors and also figure out what to do.
We're also expecting to be meeting military top brass and also to be meeting some of the rank and file soldiers to help some kind of morale boost campaign there also, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Karl, a couple of quick questions for you. First, and I know the details are sketchy, obviously for security reasons, but any sense of how long the secretary will be spending in Iraq?
PENHAUL: Not exactly, although this is going to be a day-long visit, so we would expect that some time after nightfall Donald Rumsfeld will be back on his way back to Washington.
O'BRIEN: And is there a general sense -- and, again, you told me you expect he'll be meeting with some military brass, also some of the enlisted as well who are there.
Any sense of who else -- who specifically he might be meeting with -- and again, I understand because of security concerns a lot of this information has been kept under wraps.
PENHAUL: Exactly. But also, in -- the fact that he's traveling here with Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers would indicate that he'll be meeting the senior military commanders here on the ground.
As a political as well one might also expect that he could meet with some members of the Iraqi Governing Council and the political side of the coalition authorities here, but none of those details at this point confirmed, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: And we will see if in fact the secretary makes some comments as well live from his visit in Iraq.
Karl Penhaul for us this morning. Karl, thanks, and of course we'll check in with you throughout the morning for this breaking story -- Bill.
HEMMER: So then how will this trip effect the prison abuse stories?
CNN military analyst retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd live today in Phoenix, Arizona.
Don good to see you again. Your take on Secretary Rumsfeld's visit?
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, despite the fact that people are saying it's -- that prison abuse is not the reason for this, it's certainly part of it, Bill.
He's got people all over his back, some calling for his resignation, even some from his own Party beginning to rumble.
So it makes sense for the secretary to go to the scene of the crime, if you will, Abu Ghraib Prison and go firsthand.
Talk to the people involved, talk to General Abizaid and General Sanchez, the Coalition Provisional Authority, the Iraqi Governing Council. This just makes sense.
He accepted responsibility, he says it happened on my watch, and now he's at the scene.
HEMMER: Don, are you in the camp that says that prison should be torn down as a symbol more than anything to the Iraqi people?
SHEPPERD: Yes, it's a great idea to tear it down. The problem is it's a real prison and constructing another real prison in that area with everything else going on -- it can act as a facility to hold two to four thousand detainees in a secure manner is a very difficult thing, Bill.
So it's a good idea to tear it down symbol wise, but you've got to have something to replace it, and it's not easy.
HEMMER: It's my understanding just yesterday you were looking into military intelligence, a training center. What did you learn about interrogation there?
SHEPPERD: Bill, I was at the military intelligence training center at Fort Wachuka, Arizona, and what I learned was they are as sickened about this, probably more so, than the rest of America.
Because they trained the interrogators, the military intelligence people, the human intelligence collectors, as they call them; that were involved in this.
There is nothing that they train or do that would lead to this type of action. They feel it's the action of a renegade few plus the breakdown of the chain of command. I just picked that up -- they didn't say that, but I picked that up from their feelings and talking to them.
This is against everything that they are taught -- it's against the law, it's against what they preach, it makes no sense to them, and they feel besmirched by it, Bill.
HEMMER: Did it put it into a different context for you as a military man?
SHEPPERD: It did, because I've never seen exactly how the training -- how they train interrogators. I was so impressed by the quality of these young kids.
About probably 90 percent of the class had degrees; some of them graduate degrees there. They came in because they wanted to serve their country. And the types of training that they get, the length of the course, it's about 16 week course, we saw the graduation -- part of the graduation exercise.
We watched mock interrogations -- we talked to the people that are graduating; we asked them what they would do if they faced a situation like this. I was impressed by the Army; I was so impressed by the kids that are going to be interrogating prisoners in the future.
HEMMER: Major General Don Shepperd, live in Phoenix, Arizona this morning. Thanks, Don. Good to see you. Soledad.
O'BRIEN: There are new questions this morning about the case of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian beheaded by Islamic militants. Did the U.S. government delay his departure from Iraq? And did that in some way contribute to his death, as his family seems to be claiming?
Maria Hinojosa is in Berg's hometown; she has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FBI says its agents offered Nick Berg safe passage out of Iraq, warning the young man that Iraq was a volatile place for an unprotected American.
Michael Berg, his father, says his son told him he turned down the offer of a flight out because the road to the airport was too dangerous to travel.
On Wednesday, though, the family had to deal with the unfortunate reality of death. A father meeting with a funeral director to discuss laying his 26-year-old son to rest.
A family in mourning, but now also angry. Not only at hooded murderers, but at the U.S. government for denying that Nick Berg was ever detained by U.S. authorities in Iraq.
MICHAEL BERG, FATHER OF NICK BERG: That's really what cost my son his life, was the fact that the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights, and release him when they were good and ready.
HINOJOSA: Brother David also broke his silence, saying that Nicholas had sent e-mails from Iraq about being held in U.S. custody.
While detained in Iraq, the Berg family sued Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense on April 5, demanding Nicholas' release. One day later, Nick Berg was let go and the suit was dropped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My family is devastated.
HINOJOSA: His sister spoke briefly and emotionally, the sorrow etched on her face.
Nick Berg was, according to friends, a humanitarian and an adventurer.
BRUCE HAUSER, FRIEND OF FAMILY: So he saw it as an opportunity to drum up some business for his own company and, knowing Nick, when he got there -- Nick is all about rebuilding, you know, and I'm certain that Nick had it in his mind that he's going to do something to help.
HINOJOSA: But Nicholas Berg never fulfilled his promise to himself. Lost amid the confusion of war and the post-9/11 new world order -- his father searching for blame, tries to understand.
Nick Berg's father holds the U.S. government at least partially responsible for his son's death. Late Wednesday, the FBI announced they were taking over as lead investigators into this case, while the family says they were making plans for a memorial to be held this Friday.
Maria Hinojosa, CNN, West Chester, Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Coming up in our next hour, we're going to talk with the Berg family friend and neighbor, Bruce Hauser, who you saw in that report just a moment ago.
That comes up at 8:00 a.m. Eastern time.
HEMMER: Eight minutes past the hour, Soledad. Other headlines this morning.
Stomach-turning and appalling is how some lawmakers describe new images of abuse in Iraqi prisons.
Pentagon officials brought photographs and video clips to a private screening room in the Capitol building yesterday. Many lawmakers say they do not believe the images should be made public, at least for now.
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison has seen the photos -- she joins us in a few moments here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Three U.S. soldiers now been formally referred for a court martial in connection with the abuse. The military announced that Staff Sargent Ivan "Chip" Frederick and Sargent Javal Davis will face courts martial.
Charges include mistreating detainees at Abu Ghraib Prison and dereliction of duty there. Specialist Jeremy Sivits is set to be the first to go before a tribunal in Baghdad of Wednesday next week. At least four other soldiers so far have been charged in related matters there.
India's prime minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, expected to offer his resignation today.
Unofficial resolve from the country's parliamentary elections show millions of voters supporting Sonia Gandhi and her opposition Congress Party to lead India's government.
The upset apparently surprising the prime minister who had called for parliamentary elections six months early.
A deal will soon be agreed between director Michael Moore and Disney regarding the release of his new controversial film. Miramax pictures -- the bosses there -- Bob and Harvey Weinstein apparently will buy back the movie and distribute it themselves.
"Fahrenheit 9/11" strongly criticizing the White House and President Bush and the handling of the 9/11 tragedy. It's tornado season -- the country's heartland --ominous looking storm clouds spawned this twister yesterday afternoon. South-central Kansas, a monster yet again.
Watch closely -- swirling with intensity the twister damaging three homes, blowing out windows and taking off roofs. It also moved through the town of Attica near the Oklahoma border. Residents there taking cover. Luckily, yet again, as we reported for so many days now, no one was hurt.
You see these images it is a shocker to us every time.
O'BRIEN: Those pictures pretty incredible.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: In a moment get to Jack Cafferty on our e-mail question, a good one yet again today.
Also lawmakers getting a look at more pictures of abuse at Abu Ghraib Prison -- should the new material be public? We'll hear from Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison in a moment here.
O'BRIEN: And the scandal takes a political toll on President Bush, but Senator John Kerry doesn't seem to be gaining any ground. We've got analysis ahead this morning from Jeff Greenfield.
HEMMER: Also, the government proposes major changes to improve safety in side impact crashes. The benefits and the cost to the buyer ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Some mixed emotions on Capitol Hill this morning as lawmakers react to the unreleased material depicting abuse of Iraqi prisoners that they have now seen.
Texas Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison saw the images yesterday.
She joins us this morning from Washington, D.C. with her reaction.
Nice to see you, Senator. Thanks for being with us.
SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R), TEXAS: Thank you, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of -- you've seen them -- how bad are they?
HUTCHISON: Bad. There's no doubt about it. I think the public has seen much of the image but what we saw was un-retouched so it was graphic.
O'BRIEN: I think we need to get into some detail here so forgive me especially because of the early hour, but I think a lot of the questions surround -- are there graphic depictions of rape? Are there graphic depictions of sodomy in that group of photographs that you have seen?
HUTCHISON: I did not see evidence of rape in the pictures that I saw. I did not. There were other kinds of sexual activity and I think that it was graphic because, of course, we saw pictures that hadn't been in any way protected.
O'BRIEN: Digitally enhanced or digitally -- rather -- blacked out so you couldn't make out all the details.
HUTCHISON: Right.
O'BRIEN: Democratic Senator Carl Levin as you well know said yesterday on our program that he thought all the pictures should be released to the public. He said we should basically get it out in the open so that everyone could move forward. Do you agree or disagree with that?
HUTCHISON: Soledad, I don't think that is a decision that we should make. I think there are factors to be considered.
For one thing, we have 130,000 troops in Iraq and they are trying to work with the Iraqi people and help the Iraqi people.
This is -- I think we have seen enough to see what has happened and to be very shocked and stunned and not pleased with the situation. I think any more of this could harm our troops; our troops are doing a great job. We're talking about ten or twelve people here who I think probably went out of control.
So, I don't know that letting everything out is the best thing for the prosecution of the people who did the wrong things and the incitement that could hurt the security of our troops.
O'BRIEN: Those who disagree with you would say, Senator, you know they're going to leak out anyway and they're going to leak out in dribs and drabs. And every time they leak out there will be a new headline and a new scandal. What are your answers to those critics?
HUTCHISON: Soledad, I think that could be true, that very well could be true, but for us to officially release photos that could jeopardize the privacy of people in the photos, which has to be a consideration, which might jeopardize the prosecution of people who have done something wrong, and for what purpose?
And security of our troops should be our number one goal. We should not be doing things that might be hurtful. Maybe down the road later is another issue, but I think the Pentagon needs to make that decision based on several factors, not just what more can we see.
I think we have seen what we need to see to show the kind of enemy we're facing and I think the enemy is more projected through the pictures of the grisly death of Mr. Berg.
O'BRIEN: I'm sure you recall the remarks of your Republican colleague Senator Inhofe who I think his exact words were he was outraged by the outrage over the pictures. Do you agree with his assessment?
HUTCHISON: I think that we want to be better than our enemy. We want to have moral authority and I think America does. I think our troops have shown that.
I think the Pat Tillman's of the world have shown that and that's what we need to project. So of course when we see our own people doing something that is not within the Geneva Convention, I think then we should be concerned about that, rightly so.
But I think that we must also keep our eye on the ball, that we are facing an enemy that would execute someone on videotape. There is nothing like that in what we have seen.
We have seen a violation of our moral conduct and standards, but we have not seen the viciousness of the animals who would kill someone on videotape.
O'BRIEN: Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, sounds like you're struggling with a little bit of a sore throat this morning.
HUTCHISON: Yes, I'm...
O'BRIEN: So thank you for joining us; we certainly appreciate it.
At the top of our hour, at our final hour, at 9:00 Eastern time, we're going to talk with Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts who has been highly critical of the president's policy in Iraq -- Bill.
HEMMER: At 19 past the hour now, the prisoner abuse scandal taking a political toll on the president. The latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll showing his job approval rating at an all time low.
But the same poll has the president even or slightly ahead of his challenger, Senator John Kerry. Pointing to Senator Kerry's inability to take political advantage of the trouble.
That was something that caught David Letterman's attention a bit earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE SHOW": The gas prices are up, the stock market is down, Iraq is a mess, and John Kerry is saying to himself, how am I going to beat this guy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: For some hunches this morning as to why, our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield checking back in with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
Good morning to you. We hear the grumbling from so many Democratic corners and the blame goes to John Kerry, because they say he can't gain traction.
How does John Kerry defend himself?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he's been asked about this from everybody from Tim Russert to Don Imus, and he has the same answer; that he's running better than any challenger to an incumbent in history at this point and I think except for Carter- Ford in '76 that's true.
He says he's getting record crowds, which is irrelevant -- ask McGovern about big crowds.
He then recites his basic case against President Bush and he does note that the Bush campaign has spent some $60-70 million with a mostly negative ad campaign and that has clearly not helped voter's impression of him.
I do think one key point was made by Andrew Kohut, who is a pollster in a "New York Times" op-ed piece yesterday who wrote, "As in the past, the focus at this stage is on the man in the White House and given the events in Iraq, it is unlikely to come off of him any time soon. Mr. Kerry's lack of progress should not for now be cause for concern to Democrats. Public opinion about Mr. Bush is the far more important barometer. And if it remains low, Mr. Kerry will have a chance to make his case."
So, you know, it may be a little premature for the Democrats to start panicking, maybe.
HEMMER: But back to this issue of traction. Does he have real problems? Does he have real troubles? Or is it something he can dig himself out of?
GREENFIELD: I'll give you a political answer -- both. Some of his problem is temporary. I mean, remember, people are comparing Kerry now to the numbers he was running up in the middle of the primary campaign.
There was no anti-Kerry message coming from the president or for that matter from any of his primary opponents. This was an incredibly genial campaign.
So when voters first heard the case against him in the Bush commercials, his numbers had to drop. OK, that's temporary. But the potentially long-term problems I think are two fold.
First, is the Bush campaign going to succeed in portraying John Kerry as someone on the wrong side of a culture war, in general -- elitist. Out of step with Middle America's notion about everything from faith to patriotism to food.
Second, does Kerry present himself as a public figure who always gives you a six-point answer to a one-part question, always splitting hairs to prove he hasn't changed his mind and someone who talks in Senate speak, not plain English? Which is a real problem for many senators and congressmen. And with all that, I'm going to say this again -- maybe we should get a tote board of how many times you ought to say this -- this is May, most normal people are not excited by the campaign because they know, Bill, they don't have to vote for six months.
And I have to say a president of pre-election may have even more calls for long when he looks at the job approval numbers, the basic re-elect question, would you reelect this guy, do you want someone new -- than the challenger does.
HEMMER: Most normal people -- but we're not normal.
Secretary Rumsfeld is in Iraq today, he got on a plane. If anybody thinks I'm in Iraq to throw water on the fire, they're wrong.
He continued by saying we care about the detainees being treated right, we care about soldiers behaving right. Politically, much impact here or is this a military impact?
GREENFIELD: This may have been to buck up the troops, but remember when Bush went to Iraq for Thanksgiving and posed with the turkey and we all said, ah, genius, big deal.
The aircraft carrier picture? Ah, Karl Rove is a genius; it'll be in every campaign commercial. Now it's going to be in Kerry's commercials.
I think politically this is nothing. Nothing. I mean we do this every time somebody moves we got to analyze the politics of it and sometimes the right answer is it doesn't mean much so I'm sticking with that one for now.
HEMMER: And then again we're not normal.
GREENFIELD: Well there is that.
HEMMER: Thank you Jeff. Talk to you later. Here's Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, lawmakers see more disturbing pictures of prisoner abuse. The question now though is will those pictures be made public. That's ahead.
Also, a soccer game brings a reason to celebrate in the Iraqi streets.
Those stories ahead as AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back to Jack, "Question of the Day."
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill.
While we all collectively express shock and outrage at the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners, several psychologists say they're shocked that we're shocked.
Mistreatment of prisoners during wartime is nothing new. It's happened in every war that's ever been fought. The difference this time is we have pictures.
There's another difference. The government has argued that the war on terrorism sometimes requires the suspension of civil liberties, and if it's OK to change the rules for us, why shouldn't it be OK for the enemy too?
Here's the question this morning: what's inappropriate interrogation technique in time of war? Am@cnn.com.
O'BRIEN: Interesting question; I like that today.
CAFFERTY: Why, thank you.
HEMMER: It's loaded. Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: I've been working hard on this thing -- working hard.
HEMMER: Every day.
O'BRIEN: Staff getting any sleep?
CAFFERTY: I wrote that -- a little credit. I wrote the lead-in, I made her necklace. I do a lot of stuff around here.
O'BRIEN: You do it all.
CAFFERTY: I do it all.
HEMMER: And you brewed the coffee.
CAFFERTY: A Renaissance man.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: You're most welcome.
HEMMER: In a moment here you have the surprise visit and ongoing scandal. Some say it's going to get worse before it gets better but the ultimate question today; how is it playing on the Arab street and how is it playing in Iraqi cities? Some thoughts in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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